Spelling/grammar mistakes on schools' leaflets: a biggie or not?

[ItalianPoster]

I’d need some perspective here, please. We are visiting local primary schools and have noticed many schools have spelling or grammar mistakes on their websites and in their leaflets. The most common I have come across are writing “it’s” instead of “its” and “you’re” instead of “your”. To my foreign eyes, these mistakes are atrocious. However, I’d like some perspective from native speakers: are these mistakes as horrible as I find them? Are they considered not a big deal? Why/how / to what extent/ etc. This is not a rant - I am genuinely interested in the perspective of native speakers.

The reason I am asking, and the reason I am worried, is because I am concerned it may be a sign that teachers lack the most basic skills they are supposed to teach our children; primary school teachers don’t need to be Nobel prize physicists, but if a teacher said that 2+2 = 5 or struggled to multiply or divide by 10, then I’d be worried how he/she could possibly teach basic maths to children. My concern with its vs it’s is the same. Of course AFAIK a secretary, and not teachers, may have written those things, but, still…

I understand that, when typing quickly, you could skip one letter, type one letter twice, mix the order of two letters, etc. However, I do not understand how you can possibly even think of using an apostrophe when one is not needed; keyboard layouts may change, but on no keyboard is the apostrophe so close to the other letters that typing it might be a typing error – I think you’d have to deliberately look for it. This suggests the people who wrote that stuff are not familiar with the difference between a verb (it’s / you’re) and a possessive pronoun or adjective (its / your). I understand grammar is constantly evolving, I understand there may be different opinions on some of the more arcane rules, but this seems pretty black or white to me.

Thoughts? Thanks!

I often get leaflets through the door offering tutorial services for primary and secondary children. I sent them back to the given address fully corrected if necessary. Many of the people who are likely to be using these services in my area are probably not the sort of people who are literate in English , I get very angry at rip off merchants taking their money and not even bothering to check their own leaflets.

if I was judging a school - and here we have a perfect example, apparently an English language graduate who doesn't seem to know that if takes the subjunctive... Grammar has been taught poorly or not at all in English schools for a very long time and it is a disgrace. It's particularly embarrassing to constantly see British people writing so badly when non-native speakers don't.

:-) Well, yeah, I walked into that one, I'll give you that! Maybe not the brightest thing to have done on a thread like this, although I'd argue almost acceptable in informal English...

Definitely a Eng grad though - I'll tell you how boring the Dream of the Rood is if you like...

Sorry, it was a cheap shot!

It absolutely matters. There are lots of teachers who can't do its/it's, who's/whose and should have/should of. Drives me mad. I teach in a primary school. I know this is true because I meet these people all the time at meetings etc.

Holesinthesoles

Sloppy proof reading of emails doesn't explain the inability to mark spelling and grammar mistakes in pupils' work. Of a teacher doesn't mark errors as wrong, how are pupils supposed to learn what is right?

Either the teachers don't know what is right themselves, or they can't be bothered to mark pupils' work properly. Either way, pupils are being let down.

if a teacher...

Not of.

The problem is poor typing and/ or auto-correct, followed by an inability to read through before publishing. Ultimately the Head's responsibility if they allow documents to be sent out of school without Being checked.

The dreaded comma-splice appeared in a previous version of the National Curriculum in one of the level descriptors as a feature present in children's writing at that level. Unfortunately, this was interpreted by some as something to be taught in order to attain that level, rather than a mistake to be eradicated in order to achieve the level above.

'If I were' may be correct, but it's not a subjunctive!

In our school the website etc is updated by the office staff. And the head absolutely does not have time to proof read everything they write. I don’t think it has any reflection on the standard of teaching at the school.

I’m 40 and my grammar education at state school was very patchy. You’re/your and there/their/they’re was fine. It’s and its not so much! I didn’t really get that until after I finished my (RG) university education. It also didn’t come up in my science PhD! (Why would it?!)

And autocorrect continues to try and make me look like I still don’t know!

'If I were' may be correct, but it's not a subjunctive!

How do you work that one out?

The reason these mistakes are more common in native speakers, is because they are not mistakes of knowledge, they are mistakes in transcription, and a native speaker is more likely to have internalised and separated the different processes. It's also possibly more common in English than in many other languages because of the large number of homophones - which is one of the reasons for the errors - which may not exist in your language. I don't know if Italian is in that class.

Check your typing or writing speed in Italian, and compare it to English, I suspect it's faster.

What is happening with these errors is the transcription from your thoughts into the text is a distinct process, for a lot of people that process is based on sounds - not all and those that don't do it aurally can't imagine the mistakes happenings. The error is the automatic transcription enters a different homophone than the one the user read.

Yes it's awful and yes I would judge. Something as important as a website - which is your "shop window" to the world - has to be proof read properly. If the person writing the content has poor spelling and grammar, someone else does it.

No excuses.

"There was a period of time (I'm mid 30's and I was part of this wave) in education where grammar wasn't really taught at all. "

I was just coming on to say the same thing. I learned how to use apostrophes and basic grammatical terms (adverb, clause, subject, object etc.) at university. We were taught next to no English grammar at my state schools in the 80s.

Poor grammar is very common but it's only half the issue. Native and non-native speakers tend to make very diffferent errors due to how they learn the language, and mistakes involving homophones like its/it's, you're/your, bear/bare etc are typical of English native speakers.

Native speakers usually learn the sound of a word first, years before they learn its spelling, so phonologically identical words are fused and learnt as a single language unit (e.g. there/their = /ðeər/). It's only when they learn to read and write that they have to make a distinction between them. Sometimes they don't learn to do this properly, but even native-speakers with excellent grammar will often fail to correctly distinguish between homophones when writing/typing fast or not concentrating properly. It's why proofreading matters!

Non-native speakers tend to learn the sound and written form of a word at the same time, or learn the written form first (often along with its grammatical function). They learn by mapping new words onto terms in their native language, so homophones are associated with two very different concepts (eg. there = ci, their = il loro) and learnt as two distinct language units from the start. In my experience, it's far more common for non-native speakers to struggle with the pronunciation of homophones and attempt to pronounce them slightly differently, than to confuse them when writing.

In terms of the primary school leaflets and websites, it would annoy me too! An occasional error might just mean they don't have time to proofread but multiple errors across different documents or pages suggests their grammar just isn't very good.

I've noticed this loads and find it very worrying. There's a woman on a FB group I belong to who is a primary teacher and she seems to have no grasp of grammar. She also repeatedly talks about things like the "breaks" on her car . I can't imagine how she can mark pupils' work if she doesn't know herself which word is correct.

I understand the point about homophones. However, I still think these mistakes can only happen if you are really not familiar with grammar, the structure of a sentence, the differences among subject, verb, object, adjective, pronoun, etc.

In Italian we don’t have as many homophones as in English, but we do have some (eg words with silent “h”), and, when I was a kid, there was a lot of focus on getting them right in school – getting them wrong was one of the worst things a pupil could possibly do. I can only imagine that English schools have never applied equivalent pressure.

Note I am not saying the Italian education system is necessarily better: as it often happens in Italy, on paper it’s all great, in practice it all varies hugely from school to school, and even from class to class within the same school – we do, after all, now have Italian ministers who are illiterate, write at the level of a poorly educated 10-year old, struggle with the subjunctive (which is a real ‘biggie’ in Italian, etc.), etc. etc. .

Also, as I already mentioned earlier, it seems to the Italian and English education systems are at the opposite extremes, and I find them both wrong: in Italy it’s all theory and very little practice. For example, Italian pupils study lots of theoretical English grammar, yet their level of English is, on average, incredibly poor.

I’d be curious to understand how local and foreign languages are taught in those countries which tend to speak a very good English, e.g. the Netherlands, the Nordic countries, and maybe even Germany. Does anyone know?

I'm probably not your normal primary teacher - apostrophes shoved in every word that ends in s drives me completely fucking barmy. Neighbour had a plasterer company van parked outside my house most of last week taunting me with their "The Plasterer's" logo on the side and I was frothing nicely by Friday afternoon.

I'm normally fairly laid back about typos in stuff from school (I know the quality of the teachers they have are superb and anything that creeps in is just quick typing and keyboard gremlins) - but apostrophes wind me up and I did point out to the nursery that DD2 was at at the time that they had their noticeboard outside advertising to the world that "Space's available for September start" and you've never seen the manager sprint outside as quickly to remove the offending punctuation.

I get more annoyed by the use of Comic Sans for documentation that's being produced for an adult audience to be honest which is another one much beloved of primary schools. Put the stuff aimed at the kids in it if you need to for the handwriting style "a" (but then the t in Comic Sans is incorrect), but the minutes for the board of governors meeting does not need to be written in the typographic equivalent of a novelty tie that plays Jingle Bells when you press Santa's nose. (Or use Sassoon!)

“ the "breaks" on her car”
Far from being excusable, especially coming from a teacher, confusing two nouns (breaks vs brakes) (and let’s ignore that ‘breaks’ could also be a verb) is, to me, a bit more understandable than confusing a possessive adjective with a verb (eg. its vs it’s).

"I get more annoyed by the use of Comic Sans for documentation that's being produced for an adult audience "

Ha ha, this made me laugh. I briefly worked in editing and publishing when I was a student, and I totally get what you're saying. Have a look at these links: www.comicsanscriminal.com/

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11582548

"However, I still think these mistakes can only happen if you are really not familiar with grammar, the structure of a sentence, the differences among subject, verb, object, adjective, pronoun, etc."

If the writer doesn't correct the mistake after proofreading/checking, then it probably means they don't know the difference between different parts of speech, as you say. This is very common, especially when apostrophes are involved. If it's a mistake due to carelessness/speed then I disagree - it's/its and break/brake represent the same type of mistake in my case and are based on sound. I am perfectly aware of the differences in grammar and meaning but occasionally find myself typing the wrong thing in a text message or email, which is why I always try to check what I've written (don't judge me for errors in this post, I'm writing on an old, unresponsive phone and haven't had a coffee yet!)

I teach in Italy and it's true that Italians have a far better grasp of grammar than most British people do. But Italian grammar is far more complex than English grammar (vice versa for spelling) so it's normal that the education systems take a somewhat different approach. British schools spend a lot of time on spelling, which isn't really necessary in Italy.

Many of my highly educated British friends would struggle to define a pronoun or give you an example of a modal verb. However, most of them still have excellent written English so it's not as straightforward as needing to understand grammatical rules to use them correctly, it's also something that can be picked up through reading. But the amount of cringeworthy errors you see on a daily basis - "apple's and pear's" etc - shows that this approach doesn't work in every case so more focus on grammar, and also how to write well (when I was at school content was definitely prioritised over form) is needed.

I learnt English grammar becasuse I studied foreign languages at higher level, and it's hard to study French/Italian/German grammar if you don't know that of your own language. I think this is one of the reasons Brits struggle with languages. I've taught French to British PhD students who insisted that 'chair' must be an adjective as it 'describes' a chair.

European countries where they speak excellent English (e.g. Scandinavia) tend to watch a lot of TV and films in original language (thus learning correct pronunciation, intonation, idomatic language etc), and also receive formal schooling in English as a second language (so much more grammar-focused than in British schools). So in some ways they get the best of both worlds.

LeeMiller, interesting points.

While it is certainly possible to learn another language without a good knowledge of grammar, I agree it is impossible to master if fully without.

IMHO the teaching of foreign languages in Italy is deeply flawed because it is too similar to the way Latin and Greek are taught: first a little bit of grammar, and then literature. Apparently no one ever noticed that what may be sensible for a dead language is not for a language which is not dead!

In most Italian secondary schools, for example, the first 2 years are dedicated to grammar, and the last 3 to English literature. So you have 15 year olds, who have only the most basic grasp of the language, studying Shakespeare and Chaucer - I kid you not! The problems run deep, because those who teach English will have graduated in English literature in Italy, with a similar approach (ie study lots of theoretical literature without really having a good command of the language). I suspect many of these teachers would fail tests like the IELTS or the Cambridge Certificate of Proficiency in English.

Getting off topic a bit but I totally agree, I've coached a few Italian university students for their final degree presentations and corrected their theses, and while they may be experts in Mary Shelley/ Chaucer etc their actual English level often leaves a lot to be desired! Time abroad not always being an obligatory part of the degree programme certainly doesn't help. And I agree it's madness to have teenagers studying Shakespeare's sonnets in English when they are still struggling with the past simple! It inevitably turns into a memory exercise.

On a positive note, I've been teaching English in Italy for around 5 years and I have noticed that English levels among little kids and younger teens are generally improving, at least where I live. Whether this is down to schools or increased exposure to original language material through Netflix, YouTube, computer games and so on, I don't know.

Language teaching and standards in British schools are often poor too. I think a big part of it is that many British people consider foreign languages unnecessary/irrelevant, but a lack of knowledge of English grammar definitely doesn't make things easier.

But mistakes with homophones and mistakes with apostrophes are completely different things. I'm afraid your explanation for homophones doesn't work for me - how can you type the wrong bear/bare or there/their for example without changing the meaning of the sentence completely? Proofreading the text won't make any difference to that. I have to proofread everything carefully because I need a new laptop and a number of my keys stick on this old one, causing many typos but never a bad homophone. That just doesn't make sense. If you know the correct use of bear or bare or any other such example, you can only use it.

A key difference is that, when I was a kid, there was no internet, you couldn't change the language of a TV show or DVD to English, etc. Only if you were rich could you afford real exposure to a foreign language, from buying foreign books magazines VHS (which could be found but were really expensive) to actually travelling. Today's technology means that even skint families can afford to watch films and TV series in English, or look up the lyrics of their favourite songs, etc.

Back on topic, I wonder what we should do with our children. In principle, we wouldn't mind doing some tutoring ourselves, but, in practice, being familiar with something (in this case grammar) doesn't imply being able to explain it well, and, most of all, how would this go down? Mmm... Maybe we can try to introduce some grammar with the 'excuse' of teaching Italian more formally, but I'll want to make sure it won't become a chore: I know a few immigrant families who send their kids to Greek/Korean/Japanese/etc Sunday school, and the kids all hate it.