Does class matter...honestly??

[Beba11]

Ok so brutal honesty here and I'll admit...I'm being a snob...but do I have a legitimate concern?
If you've read my previous posts you can see I've been mulling over schools. This post is a bit different (I think!)
I grew up on benefits, and lost one parent at 15 years old during GCSE year. Education wise, I went to a brilliant primary but a rough high school in the 90s. I started smoking and mucking around a lot in my late teens. Despite this, due to good family support I still managed to do my A levels and get a degree. Career wise I don't see myself as successful though through hard work my husband and I are homeowners and live in relatively nice area. I have always wanted so much better for my boys and am worried about the statistics that working class white boys are the worst off in society in terms of education and progression. I am well aware of the sad, awful class system in this country. They are currently attending a school nursery, which is linked to the outstanding school. They are progressing well and happy and the school is our nearest and most convenient and I have childcare secured. The other families are predominantly working class. There is a mixture, families like myself who I relate to but there is also quite a lot of (and here is where I may get criticised) mums who might smoke at the gate, swear a bit or just act in a way that I would never want my boys to be around. They don't seem very academically motivated. There is another school that is an extra 10 mins walk in the other direction of town, not as convenient but still not too far. I obviously don't have secure childcare there but this school seems to be much more aspirational and has a mixture of lots of backgrounds but seems that the more academic families go there. Do you think influence is very important at this age and makes a difference to learning? Even if the teaching is outstanding?

the sad awful class system in this country the one where people who are lucky enough to live on a ‘nice area’ and have their children at an outstanding school still umm and aah about their children mixing with the great unwashed? That sad awful class system? Get over yourself.

Put them in the other school. Influence is everything. We avoided a highly rated school based on similar things to what you've mentioned - smoking, parents arguing outside the gates, a dad drinking a beer on his way home from school run, litter bugs... general vile behaviour. The school is only as good as the kids who attend it!

When was it judged outstanding... well worth looking at that.

Hi OP, just wanted to add a positive/neutral comment : i think your considerations are justified, and, that to a significant extent, attitudes towards education DO matter and are shared amongst the pupils by the informal Leitkultur of a school. I did brilliantly at a school where the other kids were so uninterested in learning, mainly due to parental attitudes (specific culture which considered books to be messy) that i identified with the teachers more than any other pupils. I was a super nerd enlightened by excellently educated teachers and wish only that i could have had some peers interested in learning too.
Too tired now but will write more tomorrow. Hopefully some more nuanced posts/critique will have appeared by then.

Oh, there are already balanced comments - didnt see those when i loaded page 😴

I think your post answers your own question. You grew up in less than desirable circumstances and you are educated and successful due to family support and encouragement . I grew up on a council estate went to awful schools but I also got a degree and a decent job , my siblings have also done well and all of this is down to our brilliant parents. I completely understand the feeling of wanting better for your children , I have a baby and already don’t want her to go to a school like I did even though I know she can still be successful there. I suppose it’s hard to understand why we feel like this unless you have grown up in the same circumstances. It sounds to me like your children are going to be just fine

You might say you aren’t successful but I think going from benefits etc to owning a house is a success

I don't want my kids to mix with the kind of kids whose mums might smoke at the gate, swear a bit or just act in a way that I would never want my boys to be around.

Those poor kids have to live with such unacceptable parents. You could make their world - and the world in general - a better place by having them round to play after school to give them the benefit of xour superior parenting, perhaps? You could tell them how you used to do some of the awful things that their mums do when you were younger, but you worked hard to improve yourself and look at you now and so all is not lost for their mummies.

Sorry, but you were right about one thing...

It's hardly OPs job to parent the other kids too though. You have to do what's right for your kids. No one else's.

The social mobility stats show that class matters, however revolting and unfair that is. In secondary school peers become a stronger influence and so who your DC are going to school with and surrounded by is worth thinking through. I do think though, as your own history shows, that personal drive and capability and parental support matters more overall and it sounds like they will have this at either school.

Personally I would go with the other school. People on MN will accuse you of being a snob but you need to do whatever is best for your family. If you don't want them going for playdates where parents are smoking/drinking/swearing then I think you have a valid point. It's not really a question of class but more about aspirations.

marching OP isn't some sort of drop in for disadvantaged kids!

Only you can decide which school is best for your children OP.

But fwiw I went to a private school, I was a day student but there was an equal split between day students & boarders. Some parents were vv wealthy, a lot didn't see their kids for months on end.

Regularly snorted coke in the girls toilets, supplied by classmates - that was all down to 'influence'

^ this ^

I was assuming a touch of sarcasm in MarchingFrogs' post??

I am unashamedly middle class. If the quality of teaching is excellent your children will be fine.

Go with your instincts. I think influence is everything and you should go to the school 10 minutes further down the road if you have the option. I do not think you are snobbish. I have experience of my child being in a school where both the parents and the children just have no interest in high aims.its not just that but the strange behaviour of parents- stuff you have mentioned in your post and more. It really has a negative effect on the child- sometimes you are stuck at a school because of tiny catchment areas for better schools but if you are not then what's stopping you?

TellerTuesday4EVA That is worrying. I have heard from a couple mums(privately educated ) that they wouldn't send their own kids to private school because they feel that children don't live in reality due to parents extreme wealth. In hindsight do you think state school would have been better ?

I love armchair warriors telling the OP to turn her house into a youth club for problem families. Since when is one a snob for not wanting people to do things like smoke around a school gate?

I would go with the school that is further away.

@Purplepaper I'm not sure tbh, it's a double edged sword. Socially I'd definitely of been a better fit at a state school but it does open doors for you. My friend who is a lot better scholar than I really struggled to get accepted to unis that I sailed through entry etc.

Honestly though other mums are correct, the life some of those kids led was unreal. Wouldn't see parents for weeks on end, they'd swoop in on a weekend, take them out & drop a few thousand shopping with them then drop them back off in the dorms for another 6 weeks without contact.

My DD goes to a state school, tbh we could just about manage to send her private but didn't think it warranted making adjustments to our lifestyles to make it happen iyswim.

@JimmyGrimble I totally understand your comment and why you have criticised me. It is first world problems and I know my attitude isn't helping the awful class system we live in. I'm adopting if you can't beat em join em attitude and I'm guilty of that. But that's what I wanted. Honest feedback.
All the different opinions have been really great and given me a lot to think about and question. Thank you

Mine moved from our local school where we're a very very mixed catchment (the most deprived ward in quite an affluent borough - catchment goes from some very deprived social housing estates up to Euromillions winners) to one with a much more middle-class catchment.

Honestly - that wasn't the reason we moved - the local school was failing DD1 so much, and she simply didn't fit well there. There was an element of some of the school mums turning against her - just because she's very well spoken and articulate and loud (doesn't get 2 out of the 3 from me) and they made assumptions which they passed onto their kids who then cut her out socially completely (ironically my younger child has a speech delay). What has happened since she moved is that socially she fits much better in her new school - where there are a fair few very strong girl personalities similar to hers and she's made a lovely little close group of friends.

I wasn't at all bothered by swearing, smoking outside school, any of that rough around the edges type behaviour - but socially some of the mums had decided that DD1 (and us by association) were "posh" and turned right against us. Wasn't the major reason for moving - there were lots of issues cumulatively raising concern and it's just a much much much better school overall but socially she does actually fit in now.

I definitely didn't consider class in terms of moving her - cos they all end up back together in the same school for secondary anyway!

I think primary isn't too much of an issue as you are the greatest influencer at that age.

At secondary the choice of friends has more influence, though hopefully by then you have instilled ambition and work ethic and they will choose like minded friends, who may come from any background.

I'm currently moving my child from a school with lots of children in lower income families to one which I suppose would be considered more middle class. It's not the class thing that has bothered me. The school's Ofsted report highlighted that the school has a lot of children who come into the school very behind on the EYFS framework, and cites the high levels of deprivation in the area. The school works hard to get those children up to the expected standards at the end of year. That's brilliant for those kids. But for my son, who had already achieved most of the reception targets when he was in nursery because of the effort we put in with him, it basically means he's been largely left to it, and not pushed to meet his full potential.

There is one other thing to consider.
In the earlier years, parents make playdates with parents they get on with. If you are a fish out of water at the school gates, you may find that it is harder to get reciprocal playdates going.

Based on my limited knowledge and observations from interviews, how you speak really counts. As does a pleasant and confident manner.
White working class boys are left at the mercy of their xboxes and iPads these days. They are also talked down massively by parents who don’t want to spend a bit of time with them.
You don’t sound like this so your kids will likely be fine, regardless of the school.