Appeal - school not providing PAN numbers from previous years

[freakazoidroid]

Please can someone advise . I am appealing for a year 5 place ( we left the school 2 yrs ago) but moving back to the area now.
I have asked school for PAN numbers for past 10 years and the class sizes for those years - in order to prove they have had larger classes in the past . The school will not give me these figures - they have only given me the numbers on roll on June 7th!
Do they have to supply these figures and numbers I have asked for ??

I found previous years pans from the council website when they do a roll audit each year for the school. Have a look there to see if they provide it which I'm sure they will. In Bradford it's called bradford schools online and gives previous years information. Just type in the school name on google and it should pop up.

They need to give you information required to help your appeal, yes. Have they given a reason as to why not? I would go back saying you require these as part of your appeal; it won't look good on them in the appeal itself if it transpires they refused to answer.

Thanks for your replies - this is the schools response from the chairman of the governors ( they do their own admissions)
Thank you for your e.mail which I have referred to the Admissions Panel. They are unable to provide you with the data you request and they do feel that they have already provided you with appropriate and sufficient information in the context of you wishing to submit an Appeal.

During the Appeals process the Panel will consider the case of your daughter based on the current situation and whether there is a case for her to be offered a place in view of family, social or educational need. They are most unlikely to consider the school's admissions' history over the past ten years.

Is that an ok answer from the school regarding me asking the numbers? ( see above)

The image attached is all the info they have provided me with regarding numbers of when they have gone over 30 . They also won’t give me the exact reasons they have gone over .

Is their any where I can actually find info saying the school have to provide this info to me legally ? They are not being helpful

Bump

I'd be responding to them along the lines that your request was a freedom of information request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000, and as you are not required to state that, the date of your request was that of the previous request. As long as it was in writing, if not date is when you put it in writing.

They should provide the information as soon as possible but in any case by 20 working days from the day after that request to provide the information or tell you why not (ie what exemption applies). They should know this but may not have recognised that your request falls under the act.

Have a look at ICO.org.uk for more FOI help.

Hope that helps.

Thanks Que - that’s a good piece of info

Paragraph 2.8 of the Admission Appeals Code states that admission authorities must comply with reasonable requests from parents for information which they need to help them prepare their case for appeal. Whilst asking for the last 10 years is perhaps a little excessive, it is reasonable to ask for numbers from previous years.

The response from the Chairman of the Governors is worrying in other ways. If the "Admissions Panel" means the appeal panel, they should not be involved in deciding what information you should get to help with your appeal. The response as a whole suggests that the appeal panel is not genuinely independent.

It is certainly not up to the Governors to say whether or not the appeal panel will look at the admissions history. And, bluntly, if the school has been over PAN previously, regardless of the reason, this is something the appeal panel should be interested in as it suggests the school can cope with more pupils.

Disagree with QueJamones. There are various grounds under which they can refuse an FoI request and the timescales are such that the information, even if it is supplied, may be too late for your appeal. The Appeals Code is your better argument here.

Thank you prh47bridge
Your advice is very useful. I have to say my daughter previously attended this school and their admissions process as always seemed a bit shady .

Are their any other questions I should be asking ?

Background- we moved away in June 2014 - returning this August. My daughter didn’t get into this school on first application in reception- started 2 months later . We then stayed at this school until end of year 4 - when we moved out of the area. When we moved my daughter attended a school

• she was extremely unhappy and had social issues - couldn’t make friends, confidence went , bed wetting etc.

So for year 5 ( current) we moved her to another school . Now w have to move back to the area we moved from and obviously we want her to attend her old school . This is on a social and emotional need. If she has to go to a different school , I don’t think she will cope ( the possibility of being at 5 different primary schoos😨) I have read this can have a impact on her future academic success and confidence throughout her life. I can already see this happening. Do you think this is good grounds for appeal? Is there anything info wise I need to get for this appeal?

Many many thanks for your help

It will be a year 6 place we need

Of if anyone else has advice - that would be great - super stressed here !!!

Bump

I can't immediately think of anything else you need to ask. When you get their case for refusing admission it may suggest some other questions.

Unless you have evidence from a professional supporting your case, arguments around her needing to attend the same school as she did previously are unlikely to carry much weight with the appeal panel. That doesn't mean you will lose - that depends on the strength of the school's case. But you could improve your chances by strengthening your case. The way to do this is to identify what this school offers that is missing from the allocated school that is particularly relevant to your daughter. For example, if your daughter is musically talented and this school has loads of extracurricular musical activities, that is the kind of thing you should raise.

OK thank you

You are asking for the PAN, which is the number of places that have to be allocated. If I was the school I would have answered the question because it is almost certainly 60,60, 60............., so easy to answer and deal with. Obviously asking for the class numbers is more of an exercise, firstly because they probably did vary through the year and you are asking for 14 classes for 10 years.
I would go back and ask a more specific question, to me the obvious question is please give me the maximum numbers that were in year 6 for the past 5 years. No panel is going to be interested in data older than this anyway.
I do agree with PRH that the answer from the Chair of Govs does raise some concerns about how independent the appeal panel are or how out of touch the Chair of Govs is with the way the admission process works.

Once again - thank you for your replies

I don't entirely agree with Wearywithteens.

I would ask the question pre-appeal. The person presenting for the school won't necessarily have the information to hand. You won't be popular if you ask for an adjournment while the school's representative finds out the information. And it helps if you already know that they've been over numbers. When I've been presenting an appeal I prefer not to ask a question unless I already know the answer. It isn't always possible to stick to that but it reduces the possibility of asking a question and getting an answer that undermines your case.

Whilst I agree that 10 years is too much, the appeal panel should not be told what questions you have asked prior to the hearing. The questions you ask beforehand should have no bearing on the outcome.

Personally I think pre-appeal is too early to be raising questions about the panel's independence. I would wait and see how the hearing goes, gathering anything that indicates a lack of independence or poor training to use in a reference to the LGO/ESFA (whichever is appropriate) should the appeal be rejected. Questioning now will undoubtedly produce reassuring answers that of course the panel is independent and well trained (if they answer at all).

So when you talk about the panel - are you referring to the school? Or the independent appeal panel.

I am personally not convinced on the schools admission governors being totally transparent. How do I actually know the answers they give are the truth?

I am right in gathering all this info now aren’t I ?

Does it help that the school is not full in the infant classes?

The only panel I talk about is the independent appeal panel. They should have no involvement at this stage whatsoever.

I wouldn't trust answers from the governors about the panel's independence. Not that they are necessarily lying, but they may genuinely believe their panel is truly independent and well trained even when neither of those things is true.

Yes, you should get all the information you need together before the appeal.

Having spaces in infants isn't a great deal of help as they could easily fill up. However, the image you posted earlier suggests that the school is 6 under capacity overall. That does help in that it makes it harder for the school to argue that they are so full they can't cope with an additional pupil.