Atheist Mum - fed up with Christian Teaching in school

[Yb23487643]

Any other atheist Mums fed up with kids being taught about & subsequently believing in God & Jesus because they take everything teacher says as gospel (excuse the pun!).

I’d like my child to learn about religions but to be taught that Christians believe so&so & Hindus believe so&so etc. Even to have Passover & pagan goddess Eostre (or other Spring goddesses) at this time of year to give a rounded education. He did learn about Ramadan but thought it unbelievable. Christianity seems to have been taught with more credibility. He think god will drown bad people - like Noah’s ark & that we came from Adam & Eve.
I’ve tried explaining that there’s lots of inequality in the world & that I don’t think God - if he existed - would punish the poor & disabled & poorly.

And that Jesus doesn’t have much to do with eggs & lambs & the Easter is more about Spring-related rebirth - leaves on trees, flowers out, fertility & baby animals etc.

Explained that lots of stories similar to & predating Christianity like Krishna/Jesus comparisons & that major Christian religious festivals coincide with preexisting equinox traditions.

Not sure whether to complain to school?

WWYD?

There are secular schools but it's difficult to know which ones they are without quizzing the senior leadership team directly or talking to other parents who know the school well. All schools are "obliged" to run daily collective worship but many don't - they just can't advertise that they don't: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_Worship_(schools_in_England_and_Wales)

It is amazing how many people seem to find religious belief offensive, especially normal C of E mild Christianity.

How much of history that is taught in schools is provably 100% true? Yet, how many parents bother to tell their children that it is 'made up'.

How many people on here (I know there are some, but I suspect a tiny minority) could explain the evidence for the big bang? And yet everyone is happy to believe in it.

There is a lot of interesting discussion to be had with children over quality of evidence and proof, what is a fact, what is faith etc. However, in general, children are happy to accept all sorts of things at a young age and refine their own views and beliefs as they grow up.

There is nothing wrong with children being 'taught' religion in RE and assemblies, as long as it does not cross over into the mainstream curriculum (which would be confusing). I would never stop my own children believing and, if they make a religious statement, I don't really comment. However, if they ask me what I personally believe, I tell them of my own agnosticism and scepticism. I also tell them that different people have different beliefs. They are (and always have been) able to cope with that.

I do think that when parents talk of their children being upset by religious teaching at school, the schools are either very dodgy (and not mainstream) or the parents are projecting their own fears of their children 'catching' religion.

Larry the national curriculum includes the idea of interpreting history, questioning unreliable sources and different perspectives/ versions of the past within the history curriculum at every stage all the way through, right from key stage one. It's a pity this approach is not often applied equally to religious teaching.

Has anyone said anything about "catching religion"? No. That's a straw man. Have you actually read the posts in which people explain their actual issues with one religion being taught as truth where the teacher takes it upon themselves to do so, out of lack of ability/ willingness to reflect on their own practice, or arrogance, or ignorance, or inability to separate their private belief from professional objectivity, or for whatever reasons?

I deliberately sent my kids to the only non faith school in my area - the others are all either CofE or Catholic. It bothers me as I'm in a city, admittedly a small one, but I'm not in a rural area with few nearby schools.

They've been taught about all major religions and about 1/3 of the pupils are Muslim, Sikh or Hindu. There's also Atheists, CofE, Catholic, Jehovah's Witness and Mormon pupils that I know of, so a real mix of backgrounds.

Despite this, within 18m of starting school, DS2 has somehow taken to explaining to us all how God made the world and how, how God knows everything you do, all about Jesus... Quite surprised me given he knew very little of any religion before starting school and I've always said to him some people believe x or you, but I don't believe that myself. He can also tell you about other religions but says they are just stories some people believe in.

DS1 went through the same primary school and is very atheist in his views, always has been. The only difference is the new head who is very active in the local CofE church - suspect this has a lot to do with it and I'm annoyed DS2 seems to be getting a different education to DS1 as a result. I don't want to withdraw DS2 from RE as I do want him educated on religion. I just don't want one religion to take priority over the others!

@larrygrylls -

As evelynismycatsformerspyname said for History.

In science, people come up with theories, but they don't become accepted as scientific "fact" until lots and lots of evidence has been found to back them up. Even when they have been accepted by the majority of scientists as "fact", if any contradictory evidence later comes along then the theory has to evolve to take the new evidence into account (e.g. Quantum mechanics and General Relativity evolved from earlier theories that are still valid for most situations but just not general enough to deal with every situation). The scientific process involves rigorous critical review on an international scale. So if people accept something like the Big Bang as fact, without understanding it fully themselves, it's because they know it has been subject to that process. Good science teaching will teach the scientific method as well as the scientific fact, to put all of that into context.

Scientific fact is very different to faith which is about believing in something for which there is little or no evidence. When religion is taught well it separates out the historical facts from the faith elements and makes the difference very clear to students, while respecting the individual's right to have a faith. Unfortunately it is not taught well in most schools, and especially not in primary schools. Many teachers are evangelical about their own faith and see no problem with that - in fact they see it as their duty to pass on their faith to young children.

Ytrew,

Thank you for your erudite condescension.

I am aware of the difference between science and faith; I have a Physics degree.

However a lot of people with little scientific knowledge are very happy with headlines starting ‘a scientist has shown’ etc with little regard for the quality of the science or any interest in personally examining the evidence. That is pretty damn close to faith.

larrygrylls, yes, that is a bad situation, and it's because journalists tend not to know or care enough about science, and because people are too prone to believe whatever they read online and in newspapers (or are understandably too busy to look into individual stories further).

But I don't see how any of that justifies the status quo on religious teaching in our primary schools. It would seem to strengthen the case for better teaching all round. For example, a lot of schools are now teaching about "fake news" and "bad science".

Beliefs are not the same as facts. There is no need for non religious schools to say that any religious belief or story is a fact. The curriculum does not require this. It requires exploration of certain faiths, usually the major ones. If teachers have a strong belief in one faith, it should not alter how the curriculum is taught. It is not their personal curriculum. Parents must read the agreed syllabus for their area and then take it up with the school if it is presented incorrectly. It should always be "Christian believe, Islam teaches that.....etc". Sometimes young children do not pick up on this.

Young children tend to be fascinated by something that's new. That's the delight of being a child, isn't it? It by no means indicates that it will be life-long belief. You would expect them to be fascinated by history or science, so a religion will not be any different. Sometimes children know their parents do not like religion, so they keep pushing the button to make parents annoyed. It's the same as asking endless questions in school during the religious lesson.

However, I think the majority of parents are actually happy with what the vast majority of schools do. The ones who are not, choose very narrow religious schools which I think poses far more problems for us all. The vast majority of non religious schools teach appropriately. I do agree that it is not up to a Head to project their individual views on the syllabus and you should not expect to see any changes due to a change of Head. It's the agreed syllabus that matters, not the religion of the Head. Whatever that religion may be.

Buddles,

I think that you are right.

The national curriculum only obliges schools to have a daily act of collective worship and to teach RE (alongside PSHE). I cannot see much more than that.

I think RE should be taught more academically (as in comparatively, and evidence based) but I don't think you could have a collective act of worship unless you stated it as fact. 'Praise God who may or may not exist' does not have much of a ring to it!

I still really struggle to see how even poor teaching of a subject that most would regard as unimportant (given that most of the posters are atheists) should be stressful for young children. They really don't struggle with cognitive dissonance the way adults do and are perfectly comfortable with many versions of reality simultaneously. This is basic neurology.

As children become older, they can see that teachers are fallible and take what they want from their classes.

larry have you read the thread?

Whatever your thoughts on "basic neurology" some children get very upset indeed when two trusted and liked/ loved authority figures consistently give them diametrically opposed truths.

Teacher says "Jesus really was the son of God and came back to life after being brutally murdered, and people who believe in him are saved".

Mummy says "some people believe that, I don't, but your teacher must think it's true"

Child says "but Teacher says if you don't believe it you'll go to hell"

Mummy says "it isn't true, it's just a story some people believe"

Child says "So Teacher is lying"

Mummy says "No, she thinks its true, its what she believes"

Child "But why does she believe it if it isn't true?"

Mummy "erm, she thinks it's true... "

Child "Is she dumb"

Mummy "No, she just believes something different to me, lots of people believe different things"

Child "But how do you know whether its true"

Mummy "You can't, but its highly unlikely, I don't believe it is true"

Child "But if it is and you don't believe it what will happen!"

Child cries...

Teacher was very wrong to talk about going to hell to that age group (if it ever happened). Would probably be a disciplinary offence at most schools.

If it is not a faith school you absolutely should complain. You didn't enrol the into that school for them to be lied to. If the teacher wants to teach them in depth about Christianity it must be in the grin of Christians believe that XYZ is true.

Also nothing wrong with calling the teacher stupid. If she expresses such beliefs without accepting the possibility that she may be wrong and that they are not necessarily true she is a bit stupid.

Much commoner than the above situation is where parents select a faith school, even hypocritically going to church to get their children in, and then object to the 'faith' bit, as if that came as a complete surprise!

State non faith school, but admittedly abroad. It did really happen. Talked to teacher about it. She was baffled and didn't really "get" the problem. She actually hadn't given any head space to the fact any of the (at that time all white) children would be from families who actively did not believe what she believed, though she knew some children didn't go to church. It didn't occur to her this was an active decision due to not believing, it was pretty clear she thought that "really" everyone believed in broadly Christian teachings but some were a bit lazy.

By the time my youngest started with the same teacher there were two Muslim children in the class, one fairly secular, one with a mother who wears a headscarf and follows Islamic dietary rules. The visible difference was they only thing that seemed to make the fact not everyone in the class came from a family who believed as she does real to her, but she still left DC3 with the impression that she was pretty confident the Christians had it right.

larrygrylls, much commoner than either of those situations are ...

1. Parent selects non-faith school and is surprised to find daily collective worship still takes place.

Or ...

1. Has little or no choice but to select a church school because all the local schools are church schools.

It's those situations that people most often object to here on Mumsnet.

The legislation does say that collective worship in non-faith schools should take into account the age, aptitude and family backgrounds of the children, so no child should be upset by it - it's definitely worth raising if they are. If they're simply confused then parents can turn it into an opportunity for discussion, but it would be better if non-faith schools didn't put families in that position. Not all parents handle it well - I've known some who have told their sceptical children they should keep their views to themselves at school, which certainly isn't healthy.