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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

DD cannot remember letter shapes

51 replies

brilliotic · 23/03/2018 12:06

DD is nearly 4 and due to start reception in September.

She has recently started to segment/blend, mainly orally. These days she frequently will ask 'What makes /p/ /a/ /t/?' or similar, (meaning: what does ... make - her spoken language is not too great). Then check any answers against her expectations, so e.g. if I'd say 'that makes Pam' then she'd correct me. Also if we turn it around and I say 'what does /m/ /a/ /t/ make, she'll be able to reply 'mat'.

This is all good and I'm very pleased. It is always such a lovely think when they 'click' with blending.
However, she seems to really struggle to retain letters in her memory. She can reliably recognise s, o, x and c, and the first letter of her name but only in capital shape. Every other letter just goes in one side, and out the other. She's interested, she asks (e.g. at road signs, number plates, in books - she points and asks 'what sound does that make?') but it just doesn't stick. She has also started playing phonics apps like Teach your Monster to Read (she wants to do 'homework' when her older sibling does) but again, the letter shapes just don't stick.
So when I look at printed CVC words with her, if I remind her for each letter what sound it makes, she can then proceed to sound out and blend the word. Turn to the next page and she no longer remembers what sounds the same letters make.

This seems strange to me. Perhaps I'm blinded by the fact that her older sibling recognised all letters at barely 2. But it seems also from my experience in listening to reception children read, that usually being able to recognise/differentiate between different letters comes at an earlier stage than being able to blend.

I am also slightly concerned regarding starting school, as I know that once they start on phonics, they progress through the letters really quickly - 4-5 sounds/week. As it is now, DD would never be able to keep up with that pace. It would just mean that she comes out at the other end (when they've taught the 44 or so sounds) knowing exactly the same as she does now, i.e. 5 of them)

Does anyone have any experience with this, a child struggling to be able to differentiate between letter shapes, despite being interested and keen and able to blend? Is it simply a 'all children learn differently' thing? How can I help her retain the letter shapes in her memory?

For context, she loves numbers and maths-y things but struggled for a long time to distinguish the various number shapes from each other, too. She still is unsure at times and will often read a 2 as a 5 and vice versa.
She doesn't write at all, nor does she do any figurative drawing. Her 'artwork' is scribbles across the whole page, or paint to fill the whole page. No shapes of any kind (except in stickers/glueing cut-out shapes). In a way she doesn't seem to 'see' shapes. But then again, she securely and confidently recognises circles, squares, rectangles, and triangles. And she 'sees' amounts in a way that astounds me sometimes, e.g. up to 6 items she never has to count, but just sees how many there are; for 7, 8, 9 sometimes. And even if she is not sure how many exactly, she is very good at estimating, and if seeing e.g. 12 items will know without any doubt that it is 'more than 9' and cannot be 'less than 9'.
Also her speech is not very good, on the one hand she seems not to have done that 'implicitly learn grammar rules' thing, on the other hand she struggles to pronounce certain sounds e.g. a cat is always 'tat' which is somewhat ironic seeing as c is one of the only letters she can recognise.

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Naty1 · 23/03/2018 12:23

Alohablocks?
My dd2 seems a lot slower learning than dd1 especially colour is still guessing at 2.8yo.
Ive also got the jolly phonics app and dd1 played cbeebies playtime.
Jolly phonics do actions and songs for remembering the letters so S is like a snake.

brilliotic · 23/03/2018 13:12

She does occasionally watch Alphablocks and I guess that's kind of where she picked up blending. But it isn't helping with recognising single letters. Too many 'new' (to her) letters all at once I think.

Yes the s is like a snake thing is exactly how she remembers s, that was the first letter she was able to recognise. The o is like a circle and somehow that sticks, she knows circles. X is quite different to any other letters. And c is for cat because she loves cats and I pointed out to her that it is like a circle but with a gap.
I will look into Jolly Phonics to see if there is more like s - snake, the letter actually looks like a snake, type of things I can use. Thanks for the suggestion.

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Ohyesiam · 23/03/2018 13:15

If you lived in other European countries , she would not do any reading or letter work at all till age 7. Because their brains are ready, they all learn to read fluently in 8 to 12 weeks.
I wouldn’t over load her if I were you, she has plenty of time.

brilliotic · 23/03/2018 13:24

Unfortunately we do not live elsewhere, and she will start school in September and they will be doing 4-5 sounds/week. I am hoping to help avoid overloading her then, without overloading her now in exchange.
She is interested in letters, and asks questions. My aim is basically to find better ways to answer those questions, ways that help it all 'stick'. Clearly the way I have been answering her questions up till now have not been doing that.

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Nottheduchessofcambridge · 23/03/2018 13:31

She’s not even 4, stop putting pressure on her. Reception age learn a lot through play and only touch on phonics. Come back if she’s still the same at 7.

lorisparkle · 23/03/2018 13:32

I really would not worry yet. Lots of time looking at books and listening to you read is far more important. Ds2 had real problems with reading until year 2 when it suddenly clicked. He now has a reading age 2 years above his chronological age and reads all the time (even when he is meant to be getting ready for school!)

Perhaps play some spot the difference games, or where’s Wally type activities to help with visual discrimination overall and then some listening to everyday sounds, guessing hidden sounds etc to help with auditory discrimination.

PineappleScrunchie · 23/03/2018 13:35

Sounds totally normal to me. I bet by September they’ll be sticking and then she’ll fly because she can blend the sounds which IME is harder.

PineappleScrunchie · 23/03/2018 13:37

IE I think the ability to remember letter shapes is a development stage which she hasn’t reached yet, not something you need to work on per se.

Dontrocktheboat · 23/03/2018 13:46

She's 3 - give her a break! My ds1 didn't get the hang of reading at all until end of year one and was behind. Now in year 2 he is slightly ahead for reading. My ds2 is nearly 4 and I am very impressed when he recognises any letters though it is not entirely reliable - I've not even attempted to get him to blend letters yet, and I think he's bright enough.

I agree though that alphablocks is good and can be used for guilt free tv time! We also got stick on bath letters to practice making words in the bath.

Tomorrowillbeachicken · 23/03/2018 14:26

Since she’s not even reception yet I’d just leave her be tbh. None of ds’ year (60 intake) could read on entering school.

user789653241 · 23/03/2018 14:33

brilliotic, I think you know that too well that each children are different.
Maybe she is not just ready yet. You can start worrying when she is not actually getting what she is taught, when she is in reception.

LetItGoToRuin · 23/03/2018 14:34

Brilliotic, you're so helpful to others I really want to help you!

I don't think there's anything wrong with helping your DD to learn her letters prior to starting school.

My DD loved this puzzle. Upper and lower case are visible side by side, and each piece is a letter, with an animal for association. You need a long room though!

Does your DD know the alphabet song? (I know it's not phonetic sounds!!) When doing this puzzle my DD used to sing her way through that until she got to the next letter that was missing, and then look for that.

Tanaqui · 23/03/2018 14:38

HAs she been to the optician? In case she just can’t see them- lots of small children are long sighted.

brilliotic · 23/03/2018 14:43

I cannot stop putting pressure on her (and cannot give her a break) as I am not currently putting pressure on her. Just to clarify.

I see pressure coming up (and no they don't 'just touch on phonics' in reception, at least not at our state school) and would like to avoid that as much as possible. But not at the cost of creating pressure now!

She asks questions, I answer them. She initiates games that involve blending, I play with her. I read to her and when she chooses books that focus very much on letters (e.g. Mog's Amazing Birthday Capers, a favourite) I occasionally point out some letters. Sometimes I suggest (but don't insist) she plays Teach your Monster rather than something else on her tablet. And I observe (to myself!) how and what she learns and retains, and what she doesn't.
I hope anyone worried about this poor little hothoused child is slightly reassured now.

Pineapple, thanks, that is what I tend to think (developmental stage not reached yet) but I started to be slightly confused / became unsure when she started blending/segmenting, which I didn't expect to happen until after the letter recognition stage. Obviously you can blend orally without any reference to reading/the written word, and it is an important step either way, but somehow I was under the impression that this comes after the letter recognition thing.
This impression may be wrong though. Does anyone have experience of children who could blend and segment but not recognise letters?

Loris, spot the difference and where's Wally, excellent suggestions, thanks!

I'm wondering too if letter shapes would stick better if she'd actually write them (you need to observe a shape a lot more carefully when you actually want to copy it) but she has zero interest, so I'm not going down that route. Perhaps will see if she'd enjoy writing in sand or some such if the opportunity arises.

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MissWilmottsGhost · 23/03/2018 14:50

DD didn't know any more than the alphabet and her own name when she started reception. Nursery did a little bit of jolly phonics, but said don't worry about doing any serious reading until school.

DD was one of the top readers/writers in the class by the end of reception.

Your DC isn't even 4 yet. Chill out.

MissWilmottsGhost · 23/03/2018 14:54

YY stick on bath letters are a good fun thing to do like dontrocktheboat suggests.

I used to share a bath with DD and make rude words up, then sound them out to her not the rude ones

Dangerousmonkey · 23/03/2018 15:00

Shapes to hold or find in a messy play context are great. Also the actions for phonics (jolly phonics) give a physical connection that some learners benefit from.

TeenTimesTwo · 23/03/2018 15:00

If you know what reading scheme your child's school uses you could perhaps get some flash cards.

e.g. DD's school used RWI so I bought their phonics cards. On one side was the latter, but on the other was a picture in the shape of the letter and a description or saying.

e.g. /m/ was 'maisy mountain mountain'
and /a/ was 'a a a apple' or something like that

DD started by recognising the picture and the saying the phrase, and moved on from there.

Some schemes have actions as well - I seem to remember itchy insect accompanied by itching the back of your hand.

This makes it easier than just trying to learn the sound.

Though as she is still 6 months from school I wouldn't worry as developmentally she will progress a lot before then.

TeenTimesTwo · 23/03/2018 15:01

On one side was the letter

brilliotic · 23/03/2018 15:08

irvine, indeed, and I know I have a tendency to overthink. As a result I am very careful about my expectations and tend to prefer to err on the 'let's wait and see' side.
I do worry about reception though as DD is very resistant to being 'taught' anything at all. She is great at working things out for herself but unless she changes majorly between now and September, I'll just have to trust that she'll work out letters herself with the resources available in a reception classroom, because I'm pretty sure she won't respond well to the 'teaching' of them.

LetItGo, thanks :)
The alphabet song, well they tried to teach it to her at nursery (not where she is now) but it was pointless as she couldn't discriminate the sounds at all. She got the tune and made sounds vaguely similar... e.g Ay Bee Cee Dee Cee Dee Dee, Ay Igh Ay Ay Emily.
Her auditory discrimination has come along since then, but I'm not keen to confuse her further, with letters having not just a sound associated with them, but also a letter name.

Tanaqui, good point (I've been wondering if we should take her but been putting it off thinking she just needs more time). Thanks.

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reluctantbrit · 23/03/2018 15:12

I would go to the optician with her, there are tests for non-reader.

If she is exposed to letters and numbers on a regular basis checking eyes is the first thing on my mind.

Most children are natural curious about letters and numbers, walking home from nursery took ages because DD needed to identify all car number plates and street signs. As long as it child let I wouldn’t think it is pressure or stress.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 23/03/2018 15:15

It is more usual for children to pick up the letter recognition first, but it can happen the other way round. The two skills aren't really linked in any sort of developmental way.

This could go either way. She might be fine once she starts school and she's having to write the letters as well. I wouldn't start worrying yet but just keep a watchful eye that there might be something going on with visual discrimination or memory. Trying to sort it earlier is better than leaving it.

You say her speech isn't great. Has she been assesed by SALT?

brilliotic · 23/03/2018 15:16

More great suggestions, thanks.

Unfortunately our school does not use any scheme. Only the 'Song of Sounds' which does involve singing and actions and associating each letter sound with something ('umbrellas up') but only orally, not visually! There are no visual resources, as it is not a scheme, just a song really.

I have a very good impression of the reception teacher but the school as a whole does not do phonics well.

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picklemepopcorn · 23/03/2018 15:29

Magnetic letters, letters made out of sandpaper, make letters in play dough, or trace them in salt.

She needs kinaesthetic, sensory experience of letters not just 2d images of letters,

Nottheduchessofcambridge · 23/03/2018 21:17

My DD was reading and spelling properly from the age of 4, I was amazed at how well she picked it up. My DS however took much longer, she’ll get it in her own time OP so don’t worry. Learning difficulties aside, there aren’t many children who go into juniors without knowing how to read or write. I’m sure your DD will be fine.