DD cannot remember letter shapes

[brilliotic]

DD is nearly 4 and due to start reception in September.

She has recently started to segment/blend, mainly orally. These days she frequently will ask 'What makes /p/ /a/ /t/?' or similar, (meaning: what does ... make - her spoken language is not too great). Then check any answers against her expectations, so e.g. if I'd say 'that makes Pam' then she'd correct me. Also if we turn it around and I say 'what does /m/ /a/ /t/ make, she'll be able to reply 'mat'.

This is all good and I'm very pleased. It is always such a lovely think when they 'click' with blending.
However, she seems to really struggle to retain letters in her memory. She can reliably recognise s, o, x and c, and the first letter of her name but only in capital shape. Every other letter just goes in one side, and out the other. She's interested, she asks (e.g. at road signs, number plates, in books - she points and asks 'what sound does that make?') but it just doesn't stick. She has also started playing phonics apps like Teach your Monster to Read (she wants to do 'homework' when her older sibling does) but again, the letter shapes just don't stick.
So when I look at printed CVC words with her, if I remind her for each letter what sound it makes, she can then proceed to sound out and blend the word. Turn to the next page and she no longer remembers what sounds the same letters make.

This seems strange to me. Perhaps I'm blinded by the fact that her older sibling recognised all letters at barely 2. But it seems also from my experience in listening to reception children read, that usually being able to recognise/differentiate between different letters comes at an earlier stage than being able to blend.

I am also slightly concerned regarding starting school, as I know that once they start on phonics, they progress through the letters really quickly - 4-5 sounds/week. As it is now, DD would never be able to keep up with that pace. It would just mean that she comes out at the other end (when they've taught the 44 or so sounds) knowing exactly the same as she does now, i.e. 5 of them)

Does anyone have any experience with this, a child struggling to be able to differentiate between letter shapes, despite being interested and keen and able to blend? Is it simply a 'all children learn differently' thing? How can I help her retain the letter shapes in her memory?

For context, she loves numbers and maths-y things but struggled for a long time to distinguish the various number shapes from each other, too. She still is unsure at times and will often read a 2 as a 5 and vice versa.
She doesn't write at all, nor does she do any figurative drawing. Her 'artwork' is scribbles across the whole page, or paint to fill the whole page. No shapes of any kind (except in stickers/glueing cut-out shapes). In a way she doesn't seem to 'see' shapes. But then again, she securely and confidently recognises circles, squares, rectangles, and triangles. And she 'sees' amounts in a way that astounds me sometimes, e.g. up to 6 items she never has to count, but just sees how many there are; for 7, 8, 9 sometimes. And even if she is not sure how many exactly, she is very good at estimating, and if seeing e.g. 12 items will know without any doubt that it is 'more than 9' and cannot be 'less than 9'.
Also her speech is not very good, on the one hand she seems not to have done that 'implicitly learn grammar rules' thing, on the other hand she struggles to pronounce certain sounds e.g. a cat is always 'tat' which is somewhat ironic seeing as c is one of the only letters she can recognise.

Rafa, yes that's kind of what I was (and am) doing. Keeping an eye. Her interest in blending and segmenting threw me a bit though, I must admit. Wasn't expecting that. It kind of highlighted how much she struggles with letter shapes, in contrast.

No SALT involvement so far. She has always been at the lower margins, but just 'above the line'. But she has always been making progress, so I have practised my patience. (It is so very different parenting a pre-schooler who can express themselves easily and one that cannot - hugely frustrating at times, for both of us.) I may go have a chat with her nursery school in the new term though, as I can't help being a bit concerned. Problem is that she doesn't speak much at all to grown-ups, except close family. So noone can really give me an outside perspective on how she's doing. At nursery school they said a year ago that they weren't able to assess her language as they didn't hear her speak enough. I knew that she could speak and was just over the intervention line at her 2yo checkup (she literally met the final critera that got her over the line three days before the checkup) and knew she was making progress so kept 'waiting and seeing'. But now I'm unsure if by focusing always on the progress that she is making, and keeping the attitude that she'll get there in her own time, I may have lost sight of the fact that she may have fallen further behind and could perhaps do with some help.

Pickleme, I just looked at the price of sandpaper letters on amazon... gulp! My DS used them at his excellent Montessori nursery (though he knew all letters before starting there) but my DD is at a different setting. May think about making some, instead... Card, glue, sand? Or actual sandpaper, cut out letter shapes, stick on card?
The main advantage of '2d images of letters' is that they are everywhere and anywhere, and don't require any activity planned around them. Sandpaper letters (or similar), I'd have to source some first, then - knowing my DD - leave them somewhere for her to find and hope that she chooses to play with them. I do think that a more sensory approach would benefit her but as everyone says, she doesn't need to be recognising them yet, and I am not about to try to force it. I'll look out for everyday opportunities for sensory letter shape experiences though.

I get her eyes checked at the optician.

I made them from IKEA drawer liner. It's a textured plastic, very easy to cut!

I home schooled ds2 for a while, to bridge the gap between mainstream and his Steiner school.

Magnetic letters are cheap as chips!

Has her hearing been checked recently? Some of what you describe is similar to the way my DD was with glue ear.

It is still 5 months till she starts school it seems short to us adults, but in a nearly 4 year olds world it is a very long time. So a lot can change.
DD started school really not recognising any letters beyond her own name. She entered a class of quite frankly hothoused children one mother's level of shock that I had not taught DD to read was not dissimilar to if I had said I beat her.
It later transpired that DD does have a visual processing disorder ( would have been classed as dyslexia in the past). Inspite of that she entered year 1 able to read.
Go with the flow enjoy your DD and what she would like to do.

I think I've read that the "muscle memory" of writing the letters is helpful for this. If she's not ready to use a pencil to trace letters (say from those dotted shapes on letter formation practice sheets), then you may find her recognition improves once she is able to do that, IYSWIM? By the way, contrary to many here, I think it's good that you're alert to the possibility of future problems, even if it is probably too early to worry seriously yet.

A few months before my DD started school I was worried she didn't recognise many letters. I looked up the correct order to learn them in and then made little cards with the letter printed and then some pictures starting with that letter. So on the 'a' card would be an apple, an arrow and an axe (all words that start with the sound and not just the letter if you see what I mean.)

I laminated them and then put each group of four or five on a little key ring. My DD loved practicing them and got really excited when she knew one batch and got to move onto the next one. Good luck!

Jolly phonics as mentioned above is good. We didn't do much before starting school but did you a bit of letter recognition using this. It uses songs and pictures for each letter - you can find a lot of the songs on YouTube. So for example g is a girl with a long plait over her shoulder and m is a mountain. There is also an app with a super annoying bee in it!.

I remember my daughter used to outline the letter shapes from photocopies and also in sand as someone else has suggested so to help link the shape she formed to her memory. I think it helped

After recently reading a paper that had used Piagets Conservation tests to correlate something quite unrelated to the tests. I'm coming to believe there is more developmental links in so many of these areas (not conservation in this case I'd imagine, but similar ideas that do appear to be attained over time and not directly linked to learning), so I'm imagining your DD simply isn't developmentally ready.

You could attempt to simply memorise it, but personally I'd ignore and focus on the things she is developmentally ready to learn. Of course, knowing how she'd be developmentally ready is a different problem, but as she's not at school, so it's all completely for fun, forget about it.

Way too over invested. And makes me sad - childhood, what happened to that carefree state of learning organically? Of playing and fun. By the time they are all leave primary they will all be able to read well. Some will have learned quicker and done slower. Some will be slow at the start and overtake everyone else. Some will struggle with their letters but do sums with amazing grace or paint and create in a way that will take your breath away. How can we know what they will excel at?

Why not just try letting her learn naturally? Just read her stories and when she's ready let her try reading too. All the rest will come. Let her. E her and develop at her own pace.

Right, thanks everyone for thoughtful and helpful comments.

Will look into getting her hearing and sight checked. Should probably take DS along too, bad eyesight runs in the family.

I know 5 months is a long time to go. It's just that DS started school at this age, a few days after turning 4, and very soon after was working on letter formation etc. This would be DD starting after Easter - she'd be hopelessly out of her depth. I am so grateful she has these extra five months to develop. My guess is she still won't be as ready as DS was when she does start school, but I wouldn't mind being surprised!

She definitely is not ready to trace letters with a pencil, she can barely draw a straight line. Maybe I need to get the Play-Doh and Hama Beads out more frequently to strengthen fine motor skills/hand muscles, to support eventual pencil/drawing/writing skills. (Her gross motor skills are great).

sirfred, yes that is a distinct possibility. And I'm most certainly not going to push her into attempting to learn something she just isn't ready for yet. I worry though that at school, that is exactly what happens to many children. They then catch up by Y2 or Y3. I.e. when they've done that developmental thing, then reading/writing/maths/whatever falls into place. However it may leave them with a seriously negative early experience of school, which might affect their confidence and self-image for a long, long time.

I know I shouldn't rise to this, but, well. Bouledeneige, which part do you think is 'overinvested'? The part where I answer my DD's questions? The part where I let her choose her own games? Or the part where I observe (to myself) what she can and cannot do, what she enjoys and what she doesn't? Perhaps I should tell her 'Don't concern yourself with silly letters, my dear, reading is not for you' when she asks. Or send her away to a different room so that I cannot see what she likes to do.
And what makes you sad? That my DD has two caring parents who read to her every day and answer her questions when she asks about letters, and are attentive to her on all levels, and let her play and enjoy her childhood?

My ds was totally opposite, he developed great fine motor skills early due to being quite ill when young, but his gross motor was really behind.
There are lots of fun things you can do to develop fine motor skills, and it will benefit her when she starts writing. My ds did lots of threading, sticking, cutting and pasting, colouring, dot to dot, etc. Mrz has great list for fine motor development.

I know, though must admit I find that list a bit overwhelming! So I just pick out the things I know DD likes doing anyway :)

She sounds so similar to my DS! She’s a summer born, right? So don’t underestimate the difference that makes, mine seemed so babyish compared to the nearly five year olds.

Like your DD he much preferred numbers, he could count to 100 and even add +1 so had pretty much already gained the entire YR maths expectations before he even went

However while he knew the alphabet the only thing he could spell was his name. He could not read at all not even CVC words. He could not grip a pencil and could not draw anything, just scribbled. He couldn’t colour in.

Other than maths he was always a bit behind expectations in YR but no so much the teachers were worried.

In Y1 he’s absolutely blossomed and he’s caught up and even exceeded in reading his writing is really neat and while he’ll never be an artist I reckon, he will sit and do colouring nicely.

So don’t worry because while it’s great to encourage them those teachers know what they’re doing, leave it to them

Brillotic the list are just suggestions you aren't meant to do it all just select a few as you've done. Perhaps alternate activities so they don't get boring.

I wouldn't worry about a pre school child but I'd keep an eye on things.

I'd suggest things like spot the difference pictures and pairs games at this stage.

Just wondering how you know the school does not do phonics well? Is it because they don't have a scheme? I've never used a scheme to teach phonics apart from letters and sounds ( government scheme which tells you which order to teach the sounds) in any schools I've worked in. Do they have poor outcomes in the Year 1 phonics screening check?

My DS is in Reception and they spent the first term on letter recognition and formation (e.g. "down the pirate's plait, back up and round his face" or similar) so I would have thought this approach would help your daughter?

DS is quite old in the year so he was well able to do most of the basics and like your DD was strangely advanced with numbers but many of the children were starting completely from scratch and they all seem to be progressing well now.

Also before term started we had a home visit and had the opportunity to talk about DS so they had an idea of where he was starting from and any concerns, although they were more interested in e.g. whether he could do his coat up/go to the loo etc. But if you had a specific concern (does dyslexia present like this?) then you could flag it up as something to watch for.

kieren, she is 'technically' a summer born, but not like my DS (late August) - she'll be 4 and 5 months when she starts school. I do have experience with summer borns - DS and all his friends (from our NCT group) were August boys, so I know that the experience they have at school varies hugely depending on the individual child, and also on the school/the particular reception teacher.
DD will be more in the middle, age wise, but again, I know that that doesn't mean much at all. It's not the stats that matter, but the (my) individual child's experience.

MRZ, thanks, pairs games is another great suggestion. DD loves 'Memory' type games (where you have to find two matching cards). She's quite good at them too - I have to concentrate properly to keep up!

ThisIsNot, well I have an older child at the school and have spent many many hours listening to children read, and helping out in classrooms, over three years. It's not the lack of a scheme. The school is just not committed to phonics. They have turned Y1 in particular into 'teaching to the test'. They do teach phonics, because of the screening at end of Y1, but it's all about passing the screening test rather than quality phonics teaching. Y1 homework consisted entirely of 'mock' screening tests. That alongside non-decodable books being required to be read and so on.
With regards to phonics, I've seen too many children struggle needlessly due to the school's approach (being made to read non-decodable books but being told off for guessing is so demoralising!) so I will be keeping a very close eye on DD.

The reception teacher is not the same as DS had, MsJuniper, so I'm not sure how they teach letter formation now. With DS it was very much a case of 'this is what the letter looks like, now go and practise' which was not particularly helpful. I'm hoping the new teacher will be better at this aspect (I have heard good things so am hopeful).

Please don't worry about her. It's great that she's interested in letters and sounds. They are all different. My eldest was reading Harry Potter confidently in year 1, my youngest could only access it in year 6. I think it's more important to share stories, other books and rhymes and play games than learning to read and write before school. My reception class are all learning to read and write well now but none of them came to school with any knowledge of phonics at all. I tend to keep it fun and sensory and practise patterns to get pincer grip established. Cornflour and water or shaving foam is great fun for practising writing as is a big paintbrush dipped in water and used on the patio. I use jolly phonics as there is an action and a song to go with each phoneme and it helps the children to remember them. I hope your little one enjoys school when she starts x

My DS could only recognise the letters in his name before he started Reception (he’s old in the year so was already 5 when he started). He did not seem to be able to remember any other letter/sounds and had no interest at all (I’m a teacher and wanted him to know at least phase 1 before he went to school, and tried all summer). I was so worried that he wouldn’t keep up and wouldn’t learn the phonics. But you guessed it, once school started he did learn all the sounds, and like your dd he was quite good at blending/segmenting orally so it all clicked. September is six months away and so much can change in that time, I really wouldn’t worry.

Bouledeneige I agree with you. OP - overinvested to the point where you are concerned with an extremely intelligent little girl’s levels before she starts reception, comparing her to her brother, where you have to ask for advice on MN.

No one’s doubting you don’t want the best for your DD but chill out. It’s great she’s interested but to be worried about formations etc before she starts school is OTT. You don’t want her to get bored when she starts school.

Maggie - the OP isn't over-invested.
It's precisely because the her little girl is clearly extremely intelligent - blending and segmenting at only just 4 - that the OP is concerned that she can't do the apparently much simpler task of letter recognition. The inconsistency between conceptual ability and visual ability has set off the OP's parental spidey-sense - which is always worth listening to.

OP - you should definitely get her eye-sight tested asap (the sooner any issues are spotted, the better the prognosis). Also consider an assessment with a vision therapist to check whether there are visual perception issues (Will have to be private, but an assessment won't be too expensive. )

When my daughter was that age I hadn't a clue what blending and segmenting was. I still don't.

It seems to me that there is a kind of parenting which seems so anxious and over-invested that it makes problems where none exist.

a kind of parenting which seems so anxious and over-invested that it makes problems where none exist

Well, perhaps. But on the other hand, we had very few clues that DD had vision problems. Just a few vague comments which could be attributed to small-child-strangeness, and some inconsistencies which no-one would think twice about if they didn't know her.

But that 'anxiety' made me take her to an opticians about 2 years before she would otherwise have gone. Her condition is easier to treat the earlier it's caught: the window was just closing when we caught it, a year earlier (when we first had doubts) would have been much better.

Of course, I've worried about quite a few non-existent problems too over the years too But that's a price I'll happily pay for the slightly better prognosis for DD's vision. My regret is not following up our 'over-invested' concerns earlier.