What to look for if you suspect your child's teacher isn't very good

[Sparklywheeelbarrow]

Have NC'd for this.

If your child is a bright and capable child but you suspect their teacher is letting them coast rather than challenging them or getting them to reach their potential?

The reason I ask is that my dd is in a class with a teacher who may be doing this. The teacher in question used to work with the parent of another child in the class (job share) and long before this teacher joined our school the parent (whose judgement I totally trust) had mentioned how disorganised she was, that she was very wishy washy when it came to keeping up with the curriculum and didn't stick to lesson plans etc - then she joined our school and is now teaching our kids ... so much uneasiness ensued.

We are now halfway through the year and my dd has complained many times that this teacher treats them 'like babies' (they are year 4 for context), which makes me wonder if she is underestimating the capabilities of the class and has lower expectations of them than she should? I believe she taught Year R prior to this, if it's relevant.

So I'm wondering what I ought to be looking out for here - other than the fact that my dd doesn't like her, and that other parents aren't happy with her. What should good a teacher of Year 4 be doing to get the best out of a class?

No, I mean when main task was way too easy that children was able to do it without any problem years ago. That's what I was, and assume mmzz was talking about.

With times tables, first the teachers encourage accuracy, then they encourage speed. DS was bored. He know all the times tables inside or and back to front by age 6. By 7 he'd heard about decimals and adding 0s on the end and he'd mastered doing times tables with those (which is normally reserved for mastery). So, week after week he'd be doing the same thing and the teacher seemed to think speed was a good idea, so he gave her speed, believing that when she saw he could do it quickly, he'd get something new and he wouldn't be bored any more. Obviously that's not how it works in reality.
However all the other kids admired his speed and so DS sort of adopted it into his identity.
I tried to convince him that it was a bad idea and the teachers tried too, but he wouldn't listen.
He still thinks the speed with which he raced through work is a good thing. No one agrees with him, but he gets a buzz from being first finished.

Historically, why does a child have to complete 'the main task' (that they have been able to do in their sleep since years) before they can move on to something interesting, challenging, something they might actually learn something from?

Sometimes the 'main task', though intellectually super easy, still requires time to complete. Simply due to physically, having to copy the question out and write the answer down (perhaps demonstrating use of a 'slow' method e.g. expanded column method). So very able children are wasting a lot of time 'jumping through the hoops'.

Also, this is exactly what incentivises some kids to prioritise how quickly they can get it done. At least then they might have a little time to do something interesting.

Other kids (such as my DS, at times) it means they never get to the interesting bit, because when the task they have to complete first is so non-stimulating, they are easily distracted and start chatting/fooling around. DS knows his times tables in his sleep, but finds it very difficult to complete a whole sheet of multiplications quickly - for him that is purely an exercise in concentration. When there is nothing there to engage the mind, the mind wanders.
So DS more often than not does not get any extension/differentiation.

Historically, why does a child have to complete 'the main task' (that they have been able to do in their sleep since years)
If it's a newly introduced topic, there may well be a 'main task' eg (and I'm speaking very broadly here) writing a piece, where the differentiation would be in the vocab, structure and punctuation used by each pupil individually. Pupils would be aware of their writing targets, and its up to them to demonstrate use.
If they have been able to do something for years, obviously I wouldn't expect them to repeat it over and over for no good reason. Sometimes starting with secure knowledge is useful as a warm up though. As I said, depends what you're doing. I just find it difficult to believe that all of one pupil's primary and numerous secondary teachers over two years would have failed to instruct a class to read q thoroughly and not provide extension work, which was what was implied in the post I commented on.

He tells me he checks his work at secondary, but I don't think he does it properly. He certainly makes mistakes that he shouldn't and doesn't find them and he always tells me after exams "I finished after 40 mins, then I checked my work but I was still finished really early". Then he gets the test back marks and he's only got 85-90%
It's just a bad habit picked up at primary school. I know it's my job to get him to drop it and I'm trying.

I just find it difficult to believe that all of one pupil's primary and numerous secondary teachers over two years would have failed to instruct a class to read q thoroughly

I can just imagine, if you told a child over and over that they must read the question thoroughly, and when finished, use some time to check your answers; but that this child finds that in their experience, this is entirely unnecessary. As the questions tend to be the same format, generally, and the child most often gets everything right on first try.

The child would stop believing the teacher. They'd start thinking that these instructions apply to everyone else, but not necessary for themselves.

The child would also be in danger of incorporating that 'teacher's instructions to read q carefully and check answers don't apply to me because I am too clever' into their self-image. Making it hard for them to change, when the point comes where they DO need to read qs carefully and check answers.

I don’t suspect DS teacher is rubbish I know she is, she taught dd twice and has made some major mistakes.
However, the school is generally good and there are some excellent teachers there ( as well as some average and one or 2 pretty bad) so over DS School career it will even out.
We give extra support at home to stretch him a bit more it’s all fine

I know it's my job to get him to drop it and I'm trying.
You can only do your best, but ultimately it's up to him. If he checks but doesn't catch his mistakes he either doesn't know the correct details but thinks he does, or rushes it initially and assumes it's correct when he checks it. If he thinks he knows the work the lower marks should convince him there's something lacking in either knowledge or technique. He can ask for feedback (but I would expect some feedback in class anyhow).

Sorry for the derail op.

I actually think that if you have a very able child, you do them a dis-service by insisting that they should always 'read q's carefully, check answers' etc.

Instead I think these children need to learn a different skill. They need to learn to judge when it is necessary to pay more attention. That is another very useful habit to get into: Take a moment before every bit of work and consider in which ways it is/might be challenging, and how much of your effort it requires, and perhaps even how much effort you are willing to give it (e.g. if it is an exam paper you might want to make more of an effort, even if it is 'easy', than for an undifferentiated homework task that is just keeping you away from more interesting things)

Btw I'm not teacher bashing here. I do understand that teachers cannot plan individual lessons for each child, and am happy to supplement at home etc, and have never complained to DS' school.

It does grate though when teachers claim/believe they are challenging my child, refuse to see that they're not, and then blame any effect of that lack of challenge on me/my child.

Sorry, I meant he should be able to ask for individual feedback if necessary. All secondary schools I have been in include an element of 'exam technique' in lessons, they want the best marks possible for all. Hopefully it will sink in.

@Historicallyinaccurate you are correct: the secondary teachers all tell him to read the question carefully. The primary teachers didn't need to add be was always getting the answer right.
Three primary teachers all provided extension work. The extension work at primary was also easy.
At secondary, extension work provision is a bit more hit and miss. I know this because my older son has had none for maths for two years and he is find the work super easy and the teacher knows. just in case you are thinking that in deluded, he just qualified for the UKMT olympiad.

To be honest your attitude is not atypical and it was a bit wearying through primary school. It would be better if you could open your mind up to the possibility that exceptional DC really do exist and occasionally one might cross your path. The fact that you say you're taught several indicates that you probably haven't met one.

To be honest your attitude is not atypical and it was a bit wearying through primary school. It would be better if you could open your mind up to the possibility that exceptional DC really do exist and occasionally one might cross your path. The fact that you say you're taught several indicates that you probably haven't met one.
Sorry mmzz, obviously I am in the wrong.
I thought I was being constructive, but you obviously haven't taken it that way. I think you mentioned 'outlier' before, not exceptional, so I suppose the gifted and talented children I have encountered are not up to the standard of your DS. How very close minded of me.
However, teachers generally instruct the class as a whole wrt good exam technique. Just because your DS got all the easy stuff right in primary doesn't mean he didn't get the same instructions as everyone else. If he still thinks they don't apply to him, he is obviously mistaken, going on his more recent results. If my attitude is not atypical, but seems there must have been many other teachers in your experience who also wonder why your DS still thinks the rules don't apply to him?

*it seems

I really think there are very few children who are doing GCSE level work in Y6. This will, inevitably, give problems to primary school teachers. However, irvine, as I have said before, extension work from a good maths teacher shoud be available that could extend his leaning and broaden it. It is not all about the number of topics, there should be depth of learning too. There is no reason why the school could not get advice from a maths specialist on how to teach him, but you may have to appreciate that some primary teachers just will not be qualified enough to do this on their own.

Where I am a Governor, we have a maths grad as a primary teacher so challenging work is set. In his career of 20 years, he said he has come across one or two seriousy gifted mathematicians. It is very rare for most schools to see these children. My friend has two boys who went to Cambridge for maths. They went to state schools. The grammar school could cope with their talent, the primary school could not. They had work set by a grammar school teacher at primary which was brokered by the LA maths adviser.

Is your DC years ahead in all areas of the curriculum, irvine? I am amazed you have not looked at scholarships at independent prep schools by now. If he is so far ahead, he would surely walk into them.
However, extending writing and use of English is very possible in primary school and so is extending his knowledge in other topics. They just need a special plan for him! Also, being happy rather than being pushed all the time brings its own joys too!

@Historicallyinaccurate sorry but G&T defined as 3 in 30 is not the same as 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000. However, the DC who are 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 also go to regular schools, and maybe one will pass through your class at some point.
I never said that no one ever told DS2 not to not read the questions, or use all his time. Many have and many still do. (They also sound like a broken record telling him to show his workings btw). Its just he is in the habit of not doing it. He knows he should. he knows the advice applies to him equally. But when faced with a test paper, he just falls straight back into his old ways.

Anyway, I do not have DC at primary school any more, and I only posted on the thread to pass some experience onto the OP when i was up extra early. I was hoping to help her manage her expectations so that she doesn't get her hopes up that if she finds the winning formula of words when speaking to the school, she will be able to revolutionise her DC's experience. Also, i wanted to reinforce what a previous poster said about things to be wary of when your DC do find the work too easy over an extended period.

As I know, and I think Irvine is finding out / has already found out, when you have exceptional DC, the school won't and/or can't help. So, its down to you, the parent, what you put in place to help your DC, at least until you can try to get them into a highly selective secondary.

Bubbles, thank you. Some teachers tried to extend him in the past, and everything else about school is great except for maths.
Last year's teacher stopped giving him maths homework and gave him a free access to online work. I asked the same thing this year and was denied.
He is above average in Literacy , but not so much as his maths skill.
He is very happy child at school. But he sometimes says that he wish he can do more interesting maths work at school as well.

sorry but G&T defined as 3 in 30 is not the same as 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000.
No, I agree. But this is not what you stated before. Maybe you should have been clearer.

Maybe, I should have. I was already aware of Irvine's DS so I was entering the conversation with prior knowledge (he's more rare than 1 in 1000 btw) and the OP's post resonated with me, so I was imagining that her Dc was like mine.

My Dc are intelligent, it doesn't mean that I am.

Sorry, I didn't have this prior knowledge. I thought I was being helpful based on the info given and the q I was asked.

Hello irvine. I do completely understand that he would want to do harder work at school, however I can see the limitations of the teacher is preventing this. I would still ask if the school can access specialist advice regarding how the lessons can be relevant to him. The Head could perhaps get on board with this?

Also, and I am not sure if this would apply to him, but if there are PP children in the class who are struggling a bit more, there is research evidence on The Sutton Trust web site that a very bright child explaining maths to another child actually benefits both of them. It is one of the best ways to help PP children. I know some parents of bright children hate this idea, but it is a very good role for the bright child if it is managed well. They are not just sitting around being bored. They make a difference whilst enhancing their own skills regarding explaining, patience, etc.

He doesn't necessary want harder work. Yr2 teacher gave him works from nrich etc and he enjoyed it. We are trying to encourage him to do more problem solving type of work at home and that's what past teachers did to some extent.
Yes, he is regularly used as a TA and he doesn't mind it, but I doubt he is good at it. Sometimes watching him do some calculation puzzles me, and if I ask for explanation, it goes over my head.

Is it really not possible for a parent to send a child with extension work to do during class time if they are ridiculously far ahead of the school curriculum?

@Kokeshi123 The teacher has to agree. I've asked teachers teaching years: 2,3,4,8,9,10 and 11 if I may do this and i've been refused every time.

Kokeshi, same here, we asked before. It was refused.

However, it's not really evidence of progress if the child is continually tested well below their true level. I had this issue with DS2 in maths throughout primary school.

I remember being at a parent teacher meeting, child had to be present, where DD1 challenging maths targets were given. I pointed out Dd1 could already do that and had been proficient for a while.

Teacher insisted it was fine as DD1 need to be instant and correct and threw what she clearly thought were hard questions at DD1 - who prompt and swiftly gave the correct answers.

The target wasn't change and end of year report said how great it was DD1 had met them .

That wasn't too bad as DD1 made progress outside school and in school progress in other areas. Next year’s teacher was great and challenged her in every area.

I worry with DD2 it's across the entire year there is a lack of ambition for her.

Sparklywheeelbarrow -on-line sites can be very helpful to get them to listen and work through things - found mathfactor very good but also IXL - but no teaching there just practise but trhey work through with fewer issues than when I try and sit down with them, dulingo for languages and these days there are lots of sites out there .

Otherwise it's sticker charts and books with definite ticking off bits and clear ends that seem to help DD2 settle to tasks.