Tutoring and the 7+ / 8+ exams

[User44444]

What do you mumsnetters think of tutoring for these exams? I am following a 8+ thread here and another debating tutoring for 7+ Bute exams with interest.

My son just sat the 8+. He is at a pre prep that prepares boys. Although I had some serious concerns over the quality of teaching and preparation for the exams, which wasn’t great, I stuck to my guns and did not tutor. He is a bright boy and he works hard at school, we did all the homework and over the Christmas holidays in particular got our heads down with additional work using resources like Bond papers.

He did well, got invited for interviews at all the top 3 schools applied. One rejected him outright and he is currently on the waiting list for 2 of the schools. Not the outcome I hoped for but not disastrous.

Looking at the boys who were offered places none are particularly bright but all have been subjected to hours of extensive professional tutoring every week - for months! Some have hired so-called “super tutors” at sky high fees and even former headteachers to coach their boys. When money is seemingly no object....
I guess I just feel disappointed in these schools who make a big deal out of claiming not to want tutored children but year after year cannot see through the tutoring and seem to pick mostly heavily tutored applicants. It makes me wonder if they actually care or pretend to care.

True enough, true enough. I am following another thread in the Secondary Education forum about CLSG withdrawing 11+ offers . They have over offered and made it first come first served. So deposit and paperwork had to be dropped off in person to secure a place . The offers were “sold out” by 11am Tuesday ( results received the Friday before half term ) .
Guessing it was those “pushy parents” who didn’t take chances waiting on state school offers to come through or bothering with offer holders mornings - that filled up the places and left everyone else shocked and disappointed. The behaviour of the school is appalling creating this environment - but can you really blame the parents ?

Schoolmadness not again!! The same thing happened with CLSG last year but this year places seem to fill even quicker, however there will be lots of parents who pay deposit to secure place then wait for grammar school results or even choose another private offer instead.
Same with 7+ and 8+ so user4444 you must not lose hope. Many parents have paid deposit at WU but they want Kings or SPJ so if waiting list move there they take the place and vice versa. Waiting list process doesn’t stop until September. I read on the 8+ thread that you very much want Kings. You could also stay at your current school and try again at 11+. I think at 11+ of course there is tutoring but the exam is more complex so better for clever less coached children. But I hope you learn some lessons. Doing no coaching at all rarely leads to good outcome.

Kokeski123 I don’t necessarily disagree with you

However this thread was around how to get into the top 3 and were people tutoring in order to achieve this. I don’t think anyone actually wants to be tutoring their children. Optimally there would just be a straight forward exam (no tutor) and the exam would drive the selection. This thread reflects the fact that this is not the case. The schools set a paper which you can only excel at with the support of practice (driven by a tutor) and individuals have been, helpfully, to OP sharing what they did to support their child in gaining a place at that school.

I’ve written on the thread that this all has to be contextualise and that as a partner in a big 4 we don’t look at A level results or the school however it would be naive for me not to think that one of these 3 schools is not a fantastic stepping stone for a boy. If your son has the ability why wouldn’t you play the game you have to in order to get them in? Even if I agree with you that the game is currently ridiculous-it’s not the parents fault.

Rockabyba, if I were to put you in a room with 80 boys, would YOU be able to identify the 50 or so “naturally talented” boys more than others? The staff in these schools are humans with their own natural biases and their guess as to whom to admit is as good as yours.

User44444, the feedback from SPJ is so inconsistent with the result. sounds like the interview went very wrong? I knew boys received offers from SPJ with maths lower than 70%.

schoolmadness2016, CLSG is insane to withdraw offers. I wonder how much is the deposit? poor parents, it must be a shock to them.

Deposit apparently £1500 - I would view it as buying a call option....
Considering state school results don’t come out till March 1 it’s pretty obvious what types of families they want to steer the school away from. Oh the hypocrisy .

“Feedback from SPJ said he was in top 30 of applicants for maths and reasoning. 85% for maths no specific score given for reasoning and his English was “absolutely fine”.”

User4444, that’s strange. Didn’t a poster upstream insisted with a great degree of confidence that SPJr is very “fair” in that it strictly takes the top 80 scores for interviews and then make offers to top 36 boys without taking any external factors, ie references, state/indep, etc, into consideration? With top 30 ranking, 85% on Maths paper and solid English, he couldn’t have bombed the interview if he’s somewhat naturally bright as you described. Makes me think there are other variables involved.

Is the 11+ deadline so long? as for us, we need to accept offers pretty quickly, like within 10 working days...

njshore, that's my feel, but well, too many SPJ fans here, so I will take shelter...

“The schools set a paper which you can only excel at with the support of practice (driven by a tutor)”

I strongly disagree that one MUST have a tutor to be successful. The exams themselves are not difficult and any patient, determined, resourceful parent can help his/her child succeed, just like schoolmadness. If they do enough research, they can learn of the requirements and teach exam techniques. If you don’t have the time (due to work) or the inclination/interest to help your child, only then do you find help. I know many families who tutored their own children and were successful in gaining places. The message of this thread shouldn’t be that third-party help is the ONLY answer.

SPJ was a very tough year. I know so many very strong candidates who either didn’t get in or waitlisted. There was a boy who scored in the 90% for maths 7+ invited to interview but parents told at interview he was marginal because his reasoning score was outside the top 50. At most other schools a 90% score in anything would have secured a place! At SPJ you need exceptional maths and reasoning ability. I’ve never heard of anyone score in the 70s for maths to be offered a place. Last year one of the deputy heads told me at Open day for a maths score below 80 to make it onto her shortlist boy had to be very exceptional at all the other papers.
It comes down to demand and supply. SPJ has always been one of these schools that parents worship for the space and suburban location. When they also scraped 13+ and guaranteed senior school entry for all boys that made matters worse.

Personally I prefer Kings and WU though ...better run and hide.

For that matter, I can guarantee spj offered to boy with maths below 70%, one of DS best friend. They were told a score, not %, but we later calculated to be slightly south of 70%.

Njshore I agree. My definition of tutoring is anything over and above time spent in school and homework. If I sit with my son over and above standard homework to support him with the selection process then this is tutoring.

I don’t think many people would get through the process without some form of tutoring regardless of who is tutoring them. To be honest it’s no different to the selection process for my accountancy firm-to pass the exams you need to complete practice papers as their designed unique to us and you would be unlikely to stay within the time limit without understanding the format/type of questions etc

I am sorry Hhks but I cannot believe a score of less than 70% in maths at either 7+ or 8+ would lead to an offer at SPJ. Never. I have taught at the school, although at the older end but I knew about entrance requirements. They have far too many qualified candidates therefore never been a need to offer boys performing at that level. It was back in the day when it was known as Colet Court. Head has since changed but not admission procedures. As someone further up said it’s all about demand and supply. If your son doesn’t score highly in the exams no one has inclination to start digging around trying to find reasons why they should take your boy when there are dozens other well qualified candidates with top scores. Actually it sounds like your friend’s son didn’t score less than 70% but it was a score they deduced themselves? This is the problem with these anonymous forums anyone can post what they like.

As a teacher and part time tutor I must defend my colleagues. Tutoring isn’t some kind of magic wand we wave to get undeserving children with wealthy parents into top schools. Most of the children I have tutored are bright hardworking kids who want to do well but aren’t getting the right preparation at their current school. As BringonSpring explains this kind of preparation is essential for success at any exam whether it is 7+ creative writing or professional accountancy.

User4444 based on your son’s scores I think your son was a bit unlucky not to be offered a place but it is not unheard of. Was he waitlisted? Depends on the year, who he is competing with and performance at interview. The two 8+ SPJ candidates I was coaching scored in the 80s and 90s for maths and both got offers.

Look, you were given a score, and you know the full mark, it doesn't need A level maths to work out the percentage.

Also things are very different each year, and it depends on the pool of candidates to determine the passing mark. What I am talking about are parents walking out of interview this year. Not last year or even the cc time.

For SPJ I was told my son was in first quartile of all candidates, scored over 70% for maths but was not invited for interview. On that basis I agree with what the teacher above is saying.

But I do think a change of head can sometimes lead to a change in selection focus. WU is a case in point. Used to be a school for cerebral boys, the word “gifted” was often mentioned but in recent years under the new Head the boys they are taking are anything but. Nothing special about them just boys who can pass exams to reasonable standards. Also feedback from other families who sat SPJ both 7+ and 8+ is suggestion that new Head is trying to shake off aggressive image of school and preferred the quieter, less hyper boys who she picked from the interview. So some very clever boys were turned down if came across as arrogant. Different approach to her predecessor. We will never know what really happens in the process but lots of scenarios to consider.

If it’s not too cheeky can I ask what your hourly rate is? Please PM me might need a tutor for Kings 9+.

Hhks no one was given a score to work out. Everyone was given a %. Reasoning they wouldn’t give your % score but if you push they’d tell you which quartile or group you are in eg my son was in the top 50.

Oh, they did tell score if you ask. The HM is quite frank and open about those things. The feedback from peer parents are mixed. And we all only see a corner of the whole process.
But in the prep schools I know, both schools didn't miss out the very top boys, they did receive dual offers.

Agree SPJ Head is very open and forthcoming, one of the reasons I like the school. We were also given my son's exact % score for maths; reasoning she told us his position within the candidates; english we were given a grade not a score. After that conversation we knew he was definitely getting a place.

Hhks is your son and friends 7+ or 8+? You see my son's pre prep is one of the main feeders into these schools and for 8+ this year there wasn't much crossover between SPJ and WU. My son was one of few boys to get both. The schools picked very different boys. The "very top boys" at our school all got SP but some were declined at WU or waitlisted. WU picked a few boys who did not even get invited for interviews at SP. Go figure!

User44444 sounds to me interview may have been the dealbreaker for your son. Also do you have an idea of what your Head's reference report said? If a boy is boderline schools often rely on the report.

SPJ usually give out % scores for maths.
Drinkingcoffee I PMd you.
Onebusymother1 which of the two schools did you accept, just wondered.

Onebusymother1, the friend I mentioned sat 7+, my son sat 8+. As we are so close and a number of close friends in different London preps, we shared information a lot. The "very top boys" was referring to both 7+ and 8+. But 7+ received more dual offers, maybe it's also because the very tops would usually tend to leave at 7+, and they are so good parents think they are ready for the battle.

Keepcalmteach it was a difficult decision as both amazing schools but we went for SPJ in the end. My son felt more at home there. You cannot go wrong with either!
Hhks I agree in most in years I would think the top boys get multiple offers but this year the 8+ played out slightly differently at our school. Not so sure about the 7+.

My son sat 7+ a few years ago and he was heavily tutored and so were all the boys in his class who were sitting. He got into one of the top 3 schools where he is thriving.
The knowledge requirements of these exams is well beyond the level of year 2 studies done at any school, even the pre preps don’t do enough. Anyone who expects to sail through with no additional tutoring is simply being realistic. I certainly don’t think parents should be attacked for playing the game well. As someone said earlier in the thread we don’t make the rules, the schools do!

Sorry, simply NOT being realistic !