Tutoring and the 7+ / 8+ exams

[User44444]

What do you mumsnetters think of tutoring for these exams? I am following a 8+ thread here and another debating tutoring for 7+ Bute exams with interest.

My son just sat the 8+. He is at a pre prep that prepares boys. Although I had some serious concerns over the quality of teaching and preparation for the exams, which wasn’t great, I stuck to my guns and did not tutor. He is a bright boy and he works hard at school, we did all the homework and over the Christmas holidays in particular got our heads down with additional work using resources like Bond papers.

He did well, got invited for interviews at all the top 3 schools applied. One rejected him outright and he is currently on the waiting list for 2 of the schools. Not the outcome I hoped for but not disastrous.

Looking at the boys who were offered places none are particularly bright but all have been subjected to hours of extensive professional tutoring every week - for months! Some have hired so-called “super tutors” at sky high fees and even former headteachers to coach their boys. When money is seemingly no object....
I guess I just feel disappointed in these schools who make a big deal out of claiming not to want tutored children but year after year cannot see through the tutoring and seem to pick mostly heavily tutored applicants. It makes me wonder if they actually care or pretend to care.

[mumteacher]

Keepcalmteach may I PM you please?

[Mominatrix]

I am well aware of the school being spoken of, and adamantly agree that the school is very well equipped to meet their needs. I also know that the number of these children is certainly not even a significant minority. These children are being tutored not because they are not being challenged and certainly not to keep up, but to ensure that they remain on top so they win the prestige of scholarships to their destination senior schools. I have heard of live-in tutors who travel with the families and also of multiple tutors - money is no issue, but results are.

This is the extreme end of competitive, results-oriented parenting and, IMHO, quite damaging to the child, and we are talking about children, in question. No wonder mental health issues are skyrocketing at elite educational institutions!

[User223344]

I meant exactly what I wrote - no one can argue that external tutoring to stretch a genius child who isn’t adequately challenged by regular school life is a negative thing. My point is that those sorts of children who are so incredibly intelligent, such that the finest academic institutions in London aren’t enough, do need extra challenge but such children are extremely rare. Parents who claim to have them can often also be a little pretentious about it all.

I put it to you that a child with CATs scores in the top 5% is not that exceptional in the context of many top academic prep schools in London hence parents shouldn’t then conclude that their child is Einstein and they must be subjected to additional learning on top of an already full curriculum at school. There are some frankly bonkers parents at our school who are hediously competitive about everything and live through their children consistently pushing them and it’s not necessarily even in the interest of the child to live such an existence.

[njshore]

"...then no one can argue that this kind of tutoring is a negative thing"
Do you mean this kind of tutoring is a positive thing?

"In my experience however, even at my son’s school which is considered one of the most academic if not THE most academic in London, those kinds of kids are actually very rare."

I can guess which school you're talking about and I know a handful of very bright boys who either are currently at the school or attended recently so it's not that rare there. I believe most boys' CAT scores there are in the top 5%. Yes, the school does challenge them intellectually, more so than the average school, but these boys are intellectually driven and competitive and will push themselves even outside the classroom. For them, learning is their 'normal'.

[User223344]

If the “specialised” tutoring is genuinely for geniuses who are not adequately stretched at school and are bored then no one can argue that this kind of tutoring is a negative thing. In my experience however, even at my son’s school which is considered one of the most academic if not THE most academic in London, those kinds of kids are actually very rare. It is the kids who were heavily tutored to get admission and need ongoing tutoring to keep up appearances that I would worry about.

I agree with Roserdvelvet that a top performing academic school should be able to deliver the intellectual challenges that bright boys need to thrive, in school, allowing them some normality of life outside school and time simply just to be boys. I am satisfied that our school certainly delivers this!

[njshore]

Well stated, NoLongerWorried. If it's acceptable to get specialised athletics or music coaching to get to an 'elite' level, say for tennis, football, cricket, piano, violin, etc., why should it be perceived to be a "bad' thing to have specialised coaching for academics, which is more important? Even at a 'top' academic schools in London, I have seen very bright kids still not adequately stretched at school and look beyond for specialised tutoring in Maths, chess, etc. These are the kids who win the Maths Olympiads and chess at the national/international level.

[NoLongerWorried]

Roseredvelvet, it's just my observation on what's happening around in the school. Most boys I see at DS school are indeed the happy, balanced type of boys that you described, including my DS.
I don't want to derail this thread to another topic. But in short, I agree with the philosophy of letting the school do the teaching and let the kids be happy learners. Any tutoring should have a meaningful purpose and it's not a best fit for every kid.

[Roseredvelvet]

NoLongerWorried one to give the boy bigger challenge to exceed to the elite level I thought the whole point of my ds going to one of these schools was for him to be suitably challenged. I could save an awful lot of money home-educating him with tutors. I personally believe that children need a well rounded and balanced education. They need to be able to get on with their peers, mess around and play. In order to excel later in life, I would've thought they need to do more than just hit the books! These are little boys!

[User223344]

You are so right NoLongerWorried. I agree!

[NoLongerWorried]

User223344, yes, sorry that my original post was a bit unclear as it covers two slightly different topics. On 7+/8+ exams, we are on the same page as I don't think over tutoring is needed, and in fact it's perhaps even damaging to the kids involved at this tender age. I was just sharing my afterthought as a parent who was lucky enough to have DS into one of those schools without any tutoring. On general tutoring once the boy is in the school, I realized that the tutoring splits into two forms: one to simply get the boy to hang on to the class , one to give the boy bigger challenge to exceed to the elite level. The first form of tutoring is toxic as the boy needing it shouldn't be in the school in the first place, that I think we both agree too.

[User223344]

Ok NoLongerWorried it sounds like we were talking about two different things! I thought the thread was about parents overtutoring for the 7+ and 8+ exams and I was sharing my experience of what happens to some of these kids if they manage to get admission.

[NoLongerWorried]

User223344, I think we are talking about different level of tutoring. The boys that I referred to in the school are those we are already top of the year in various subjects and they are after something extra beyond what the school would normally provide to the 'average' classes. Do you believe all those boys that won national competitions in Maths, history, art, music, sport etc don't get extra coaching/tutoring outside school? I am not talking about those boys that need tutoring just to keep up with the rest of the class....

[User749098562]

"It is alarmist to suggest that a bright child at a good school cannot succeed to the highest level without additional intervention."

Completely agree.

The tutoring creeps back in for most people when the 11+ pre tests then the 13+ comes round. Our school, although attached to a senior school, requires everyone to sit the 13+. It is unfortunately necessary for most children to have some tutoring for these exams but when tutoring becomes an everyday part of life, as it is for some of the boys in my son's class, it is simply dysfunctional.

[User223344]

I’m afraid I don’t really accept that. Not apeveryone has bought into this extra tutoring culture. I think if you are subjecting your child to that as part of their normal schooling they shouldn’t be at that school. The majority of boys in my son’s class are bright boys who work hard at school, do their homework and also spend lots of time playing (not being coached for..) sport or just goofing around watching tv. It is actually a minority of boys who need to receive extra coaching just to keep up.

It is alarmist to suggest that a bright child at a good school cannot succeed to the highest level without additional intervention. I think the elephant in the room is the fact that some of these children aren’t meant to thrive in a very academic environment but are being forced to be there. Yes, we all want the best for our children but the best for child A isn’t necessarily the best for child B. Even with my own children I see differences in ability.

[NoLongerWorried]

No parent would believe nor admit their kid is not bright enough to be in those top schools at 7+/8+. All they want is the best chance for their DS/DD to get in. And no parent will ever believe their kid will ever struggle later on. This is just parent nature. So tutoring, and sometimes over tutoring is unavoidable given the heightened competition in recent years. DS got into one of those schools two years ago at which time we didn't really take any tutoring. But thinking back, it's very scary and if we were to do it again, I would be inclined to have some form of light tutoring for the boy just to feel better as a parent, in case things didn't go well and we won't feel it's entirely our own fault. Things are changing and it's not the good old days when we were young. I do know some boys in the school who are naturally bright but still being tutored over the years. After all, to get to the elite national/international level in music, sports, and even academy, all boys(and girls) will have to have specialised and intensive training, and most time outside school curriculum. So to be successful, one now needs not only the brain, but also the financial backing and external support. The world is changing and it's just a fact that we'll have to face I'm afraid...

[User749098562]

Same can be said for girls I'm sure..

[User749098562]

If it is any consolation I can categorically tell you that the heavily tutored boys who join these academic schools struggle. They really do. My son is now in Y5 at one of these schools and the cracks started to show last year - boys falling behind in class, parents hiring tutors to work with them at home on top of their regular school work. Sometimes is specific subjects, worse case scenario it's across the board. It is dysfunctional.

Everyone has to have some kind of coaching to sit these exams of course that's a fact but the rampant tutoring to push young children into schools meant for innately very academic kids does these boys no favours.

[Banners75]

Kindly can keepcalmteach pm me please too. We just did the 8+ from a state school, no tutor but I feel I was at a disadvantage now and don’t want to make the same mistake going forward. Your help will be greatly appreciated.

[OptimysticMom]

Sorry just reading through this post, now!
Keepcalmteach could you please PM me details about your teaching? Thank you.

[Roseredvelvet]

Onebusymother I concur. Well done to your boy. My ds's English composition would certainly not have been full of metaphors, similes or pre learnt openers. I did not want to take the risk of overly tutoring him and then him fail to gain a place at the age of 7. He is a spring baby and very sensitive, I didn't want to damage his self confidence. It was a case of, if you get in great, you won't have to sit the 11+, if you don't, you'll stay with your friends. Do the majority of parents keep up the tutoring once the child is in one of these schools? The problem with testing at such a young age is that some children won't have hit some of the developmental milestones required and as another OP stated, they won't be emotionally ready. Still it's worth a go as entry is definitely easier at this age than the awful 11+!

[schoolmadness2016]

You don’t need a supertutor to regular tutor to access past papers . A simple search on google will reveal a wealth of info. That’s how I found exampapersplus which was a fantastic resource that will not only provide sample full length and subject specific exams but also answer guides and marking schemes . For £14 you get 4 full exams to work through - there are also additional maths problem solving papers, grammar as well as verbal and non verbal reasoning .
Also many schools ( habs, nlcs, kings, Highgate, etc) will have past papers available on their sites for prospective parents to access for free. So really the external tutor cost will pay for the research as well as the hours working w a child a parent has no time or desire to do, not open some mystical doors to secret treasure troves of exclusive study aids .

[User223344]

Mominatrix you say it’s unfair to criticise schools but what about the Heads who stand up at Open Day and openly criticise parents for tutoring only to make offers largely to children who have been heavily tutored? I’ve had the pleasure of the 11+ this year and listened to the Head of one of the top london girls school give an anti tutoring lecture. Results are just out - guess which girls got into her school?

All sides can take some responsibility here. No exam can be “tutor proof” of course but schools can bring in more problem solving tasks, longer interviews to really get to know a child and take away a lot of the predictable stuff. Avoid stories by 7 year olds that read more like something out of an adult fiction book!

[NoLongerWorried]

Mominatrix, very well said! Totally agree.

[Mominatrix]

No exam is tutor proof, and practice will make any result higher - even the reasoning papers. To criticise the schools is not really fair and exudes a whiff of bitterness. What choice do the schools have, really. The bulk of candidates are very similar in intelligence and strengths/weaknesses and choosing 20-50 boys amongst that group is really a task which must be frustrating. The majority are bright, hardworking, sparky in someway but there are only so many spots available.

I don't scoff at heavily tutored boys getting spots - they certainly have worked hard for their spots. I am dismayed by the parents feeling they must buy in the tutoring to obtain the spots. However, the parent population purchasing super-tutor time, despite it not being necessary, and leading to the rise in heavily tutored candidates are only reflecting qualities they themselves have - ultra competitive, super-ambitious, and results driven. These are probably the qualities which have allowed themselves to be in a financial position to send their child to schools like the ones we are talking about. For those who are aghast at this sort of culture and are upset their child missed out on a spot at one of these schools, do keep in mind that these sorts of parents do set the tone at the schools and perhaps not getting a spot at the 7+/8+ is not such a bad thing. Better to wait for entrance to the senior schools where parents are really kept at arms length and thus the tone of the schools is often different to the junior schools.