Non-decodable book sent home

[drspouse]

DS has just started Y1, he's decoding nicely and building up fluency. He is still on Red partly I think because he tends to mix up some of his digraphs.
I've done the Yellow digraphs on Hairy Phonics and read a few bits with him too. But if they feel he needs more practice on Red that's great.
However we've just had a non-decodable book from school. New Zealand publisher, 1997, all repetitive/guessable, and on every page is the word Time. He's not done i-e. The title contains i-e too.
Shall I send it back and say maybe it's in the wrong band?
He's started trying to guess words which we have firmly discouraged and I try not to say "you've seen this word before" unless it's an official "tricky word" but that's how he'd have to read this book.
Maybe advice from @mrz?

"The point is that at 4 he wouldn't know that" wouldn't he? How many children are turned off because they believe that it's too hard simply because they haven't been taught. How many learn that they need someone else to do things for them because it's too difficult. If we ask children to do things beyond their ability/knowledge/skills we are setting them up for failure.

irvine. - the phonics screening check will find children who are not at the expected level, but not why. The expectation for children not at that level by the end of year 1 is a phonics-based intervention in year 2 whilst this may be appropriate for most, a small percentage of children need an alternative approach.

alberta, my ds was a natural decoder, he had reading(decoding) age of mid teens at start of reception. It was flagged up very early that his comprehension was not there. I think it was partially to do with his age, other to do with his hyperlexic tendencies. Nothing to do with him being able to decode. He has age appropriate comprehension now, and loves reading. Teaching of phonics has gave him a strong skills to tackle any words, I can't imagine him being taught otherwise and have same skill now.

roloisking, I think "Why" is up to individual children, so up to the teacher/school to figure out why and give them appropriate help. I know it's not a diagnostic test.

I am particularly interested in the relationship between reading and speaking. My guess would be that in homes where children are talked to and listened to and where there are family discussions, it may be a lot easier for children to read

alberta - oral language development prior to starting school is a reliable predictor of future academic success.

irvine - unfortunately, some schools continue to give unsuitable interventions for this small percentage, particularly if the child's specific difficulties have not been identified.

"the phonics screening check will find children who are not at the expected level, but not why. " it's a diagnostic tool and will identify gaps in knowledge and skills if used correctly by the school. Educational Psychologists use similar checks when assessing children with reading/literacy difficulties and it's also a feature of most (possibly all) Dyslexia screening programs.

I am also very wary of the way in which English - not just learning to read is taught. The idea is that a text has a fixed meaning which we can comprehend/decode. I don't think that is how books, particularly really good ones work. (What does Jane Eyre mean?)

The idea that we must understand something to enjoy it seems to me to be mistaken. Yes, we have to partially understand something to engage with hit.

But I've just read 'Howard's End.' I thought I understood it when I read it at 19. Now, a few decades later, I realise that I don't. And I'm enjoying it a great deal more.

Perhaps we can get children to enjoy challenges a bit more?

"My guess would be that in homes where children are talked to and listened to and where there are family discussions, it may be a lot easier for children to read" it has a huge impact on the comprehension element of reading

The school I work in has a good range of decodable books but we also have an extremely large collection of Biff and Chip stories. Children are always given the decodable books first but sometimes when they choose their own from the box they will pick a Magic Key. When I hear readers they read the decodable text to me but if they have a Biff book I will read it to them and focus more on comprehension.
Ideally I'd love to just chuck all the magic key but we just have so many and new books are so expensive.

"The idea is that a text has a fixed meaning" there's no such idea

I think Jane Eyre and Howard's End are a bit beyond my five year old.

I have absolutely NO idea what you
are talking about

Not a helpful response I'm aware but it would not even have crossed my mind whether he'd covered it or not. We'd just read it, comment and send it back.

Delighted to see you, Norestformrz

Coconutoil, Floppy's Phonics are fully decodable and all Biff and Chip. All schools had the opportunity to use matched funding to replace old schemes for two years. Julia Donaldson's Songbirds are always available at The Book People at £17.99 for 36 books.

I'm not planning on staying Feenie but I got a message to look at this thread and I just had to respond when I should have resisted ...that's my problem I'm too nosey!

I find it really frustrating that there is an assumption that good quality phonics teaching must be boring, monotonous and detrimental to reading comprehension and/or a love of reading. Michael Rosen for instance has this belief that phonics and a love of reading are mutually exclusive.

They are not.

I am a very vocal supporter of phonics and insist on children 'sounding out' and not guessing in my Y2 class. Yet somehow, my classes have an absolute joy in reading. After sharing one novel with a class, I had 5 or 6 children all come and tell me that they had bought/downloaded/borrowed from the library the next one in the series.

With one particularly noisy, boisterous class, I only had one way sure-fire way of getting quiet- the magic words 'story time'.

Last year I had a little group of children with very poor decoding skills, who had 'failed' the phonics screening check. Their comprehension skills were pretty good, one child came up with really thoughtful insights during story time. But they couldn't comprehend their own reading books without being able to decode them. After a year of me pushing and pushing with the phonics, they were reading so much more confidently. The pleasure that they took in being able to choose and red a much wider range of books was a joy to see.

Phonics isn't everything, but it opens the door to independent enjoyment and comprehension.

Yes sorry feenie, we have those. I mean we also have a lot of the old magic key adventure ones. This week I've read 'The Weather Vane' which has words like building site in. We have the songbirds and the floppy phonics but they seem to have been used to extend rather than replace. There also only seems to be about 4/6 songbirds for each level?
I've order a series called Talisman this week, interest age 8+ reading age 6ish (can't remember exactly) and they were about £45 for 10. Would've loved more but was only allowed one set

Quite right MrsKCastle Phonics readers do not have to be boring at all.

I have seen first hand the result of mixed methods in my DD's school. Flashcards and phonics in reception, reading recovery books, ancient ORT, also in reception - actively encouraged to use the picture to guess.

I have been quite hard on phonics only at home and DD was reading level 13 ORT equivalent by the end of Y1. It would seem that a fortunate few in her class have 'got it' despite the mixed approach but quite a few are struggling. It is sad because in all other respects the school is amazing.

Just put them away and save them until later.

Educational Psychologists use similar checks when assessing children with reading/literacy difficulties and it's also a feature of most (possibly all) Dyslexia screening programs.

Dyslexia screening programmes used in schools miss about 20% of children with dyslexia.

The standardised assessments used to assess for literacy difficulties also use "sight reading" as a measure; for instance, some of the most commonly used tests such as TOWRE-2 provides composite scores based on sight reading efficiency (how quickly high frequency words can be retrieved from memory) and phonemic decoding efficiency (how quickly non-words can be read) - the scores are combined to provide a measure of word reading efficiency. Obviously, this ability is closely linked to fluency, which in turn affects comprehension.

"the phonics screening check will find children who are not at the expected level, but not why. " it's a diagnostic tool and will identify gaps in knowledge and skills if used correctly by the school.*

This assumes that the information is used correctly by the school - unfortunately, as someone who visits/assesses children from many different schools, my experience suggests that it is often a tick box exercise.

Another test used in assessments is CTTOP-2 which measures phonological processing includes subtests which provide measures of phonological awareness - not to be confused with phonics. In recent years, assessors have found that (due to good phonics teaching) children often now achieving average scores for some phonological awareness sub-tests, but continue to have deficits in areas such as phonological memory and rapid naming both important for reading and writing. In short, good phonics teaching may mean that some children will pass the phonics screening test, but continue to have underlying difficulties that affect reading and writing.

"Dyslexia screening programmes used in schools" no Dyslexia screening programmes used by experts

"The standardised assessments used to assess for literacy difficulties also use "sight reading" as a measure; " no it assesses automaticity

"Dyslexia screening programmes used in schools" no Dyslexia screening programmes used by experts*

Which programmes are you referring to?

"The standardised assessments used to assess for literacy difficulties also use "sight reading" as a measure; " no it assesses automaticity

From the TOWRE-2 manual "The ability to recognise familiar words as whole units or sight words (sight word efficiency test)".