If a child stabbed another dc in the hand with pencil WW happen in your school?

[justgivemeamo]

Just wondering a DC who is 9 and has since little had repeated violent outbursts is going to get a missed break time for leaving two puncture wounds in another dc hand.

Would parents get told about this?
Personally I would expect the parents of the child to be told, and be called into the school to work on this?

out because one size does not fit all. It is as simple as that. If you honestly think that having one set of rules and one set of punishments for every child in the entire nation would work, you really haven't understood the purpose of schools and the challenges that they face.

rules for violent offences should be set in stone.
it's one thing to be wishy washy over pushing or grabbing but stabbing is in a league of it's own.
bubbles the fact that it is very difficult to find alternative schools needs to pushed forward on the agenda. no child should be stabbed at school period (pencil, scissors, compass or knife)

In a court of law evidence and circumstances are taken into account when deciding on punishment. Do young children not deserve the same consideration?

There's manditiry minimum sentencing for some offences.

My DD (then 8) was stabbed in the shoulder by a boy in her class with a pencil. I wasn't informed by the school although they made sure the wound was cleaned etc thankfully. The boy in question was put on amber on their traffic light system. I had quite a time the following week when DS (same class) got put on red for talking in class, trying to explain he absolutely shouldn't have been talking but at a loss is to why it was a worse offence than stabbing someone with a pencil.

Only if found culpable when all facts known

Define violent offences? Stabbing is not an absolute descriptor. Do they mean touched with a pencil, poked, jabbed or violently stabbed with broken skin?

Did somebody brush past little Jenny? Was it a jokey push? Was it an accident? Was a deliberate push? Was it an attempt to cause serious injury? Does little Oliver have undiagnosed dyspraxia and was struggling to navigate the corridor when he pushed into Jenny. Even though Jenny really hurt her arm and thinks he did it on purpose, Mrs Smith knows that Oliver wouldn't hurt a fly, has never done anything like that before and knows he can easily trip over his own feet. Should Oliver receive the same punishment as another child? Jenny's parents will want to know why national guidelines aren't enforced because it's only fair.

soapboxqueen has got it exactly right. Each circumstance should be investigated and the punishment should be appropriate and help given if needed. That also includes to children who are struggling to behave to the conventional norms. It does not mean they should escape all punishment but the Head is best placed to deal with all breaches of discipline in a school.

Stabbing with a knife would be very rare in a primary school and clearly would be a matter for the police. Usually scissors have rounded ends in a primary school. I really do not think stabbing is a regular occurrence in a primary school. Pencils are slightly different in that they are readily available but the age of the child and whether they have SEN (and this includes behaviour and emotional SEN) needs to be taken into account so that punishment and prevention can be undertaken.

What we actually need is an education ombudsman so that schools can be held to account for complying with their own policies or for situations that have gone beyond all reasonableness eg protracted bullying, lack of support for SEN etc etc. An outside agency for parents/carers to go for support, mediation and a final say.

Which is why imho Ofsted in its current form should be scrapped because it does fuck all. It can be the ombudsman and HMIs can come back to drive improvement through support and leadership.

Are there still parent partnerships or have these died a death?

I've honestly got no idea. Never come across them either professionally or personally.

It certainly sounds like there is room for improvement.
An algorithm or decision tree certainly can include SEN.

The matter would be investigated and the head would speak to both sets of parents. They would explain to the victim's parents that actions would be taken with the other child BUT they would not be told what those actions are. The other parents would be spoken to and an appropriate course of action agreed.

There is not a specified action but each incident would be dealt with individually.

bubbles parent partnerships are only for parents of children with send. They have been rebranded as sendias, special educational needs and disabilities information and advice service. (I think. Something that rolls off the tongue like that, anyhow). Certainly in my big of England. Not sure about the rest of the country.

When I was working the Parent Partnership advocated for SEN children. No two cases are the same though. Whether it is SEN, behaviour or mental health.

Interesting comments thank you.

Define violent offences? Stabbing is not an absolute descriptor. Do they mean touched with a pencil, poked, jabbed or violently stabbed with broken skin?

Obviously I cant comment in depth but this dc has a long long history of hurting other DC. On this occasion he was sat next to his usual partner and drove a pencil into her hand and dragged it along the skin. No dispraxia etc.

The head was told - casually in the play ground and Head made a casual remark about " boys being boys" and something like " perhaps mummy can try and wash out the pen stain from the skin".

Its not a one off - and the DC behaviour constantly disrupts the class but has done for years. I am all for dc mixing with all types of people but at one point does one draw the line and say its not fair on 29 dc to have this one dc constantly and unceasingly disrupting the class?

The DP are middle class, the home back ground is extremely loving, with lots of family around. This is in no way a deprived dc with difficult family background.

Surely there should be a different school for him to attend with his friends who he mucks around with in extreme disruptive behaviour.

The methods being used to discipline him are not working. They have not worked since nursery. He needs a different approach taken by more specialist teachers who can teach him in a new way.

You are really now saying this child has special needs. Never assume that a child with behavioural difficulties comes from a poor or dysfunctional home. I can assure you this is not the case. Good Behaviour is not all learned from adults. It comes from within too.

Schools with children like this have to manage their behaviour from their SEN budget and work with the parents. We all know there are children who just do not see the pain of others and have little empathy for others. Schools can draw on support services such as Educational Psychologists and behaviour specialists for advice but clearly strong teaching is required as well as TA time. The child may have a EHIC statement but this will not necessarily say he must go to a special school. Many parents will not agree to this because they think their child will grow out of it and being with "normal" children will bring about improvement. It can take years for the penny to drop. Alternatively the school could permanently exclude but that may not be upheld and would depend on circumstances.

I do think the school should ensure this behaviour does not impinge on others because they must keep all children safe. Parents rarely feel able to petition a head though but you could try. Essentially forcing a parent to accept a special school is unlikely to happen so it may be taking time to work with the parents. If it was your child, what would you want?

The school could also work with the Primary PRU if they do outreach.

Never assume that a child with behavioural difficulties comes from a poor or dysfunctional home. I can assure you this is not the case. Good Behaviour is not all learned from adults. It comes from within too

I know this - but some posters assume its always the FSM pupils.

I do think the school should ensure this behavior does not impinge on others because they must keep all children safe I agree but this sort of behavior and general disruption has gone on since reception and probably before. The whole class has born this burden for years and years. Where is a line drawn. I agree the dp probably wouldn't want to think about it - but then again its their DC.

For me personally if this was my DC, I would be mortified if my DC had deliberately hurt another dc and not just a one off - but on top of that repeated and constant disruption. I would look into other forms of education, even home ed. cant see how I would feel its ok to make a whole class suffer year in and year out.

You really cannot assume all parents are the same. They may not be mortified at all and expect the school to deal with the needs of the child. There are countless threads on MN about that.

Also, special school places are really difficult to get and the child at primary age must be pretty bad. It is up to the school to escalate matters. All you can do is tell them you do not believe your child is safe.

A parent cannot just demand a place at a special school. You must have it named on a statement after a lengthy process involving reports by many experts and negotiation with parents. If a parent would like to pay for such a school, expect a bill of about £40,000 pa. - most parents cannot sort out alternatives. This is why the school should be held to account.

"For me personally if this was my DC, I would be mortified if my DC had deliberately hurt another dc " I imagine the parents are mortified and probably at their wits end

No I know them, I don't think they are - I have personally witnessed countless ;total denial. Once the DC really hurt a baby, the babies DM was horrified - whose DC is this - and the Dm was defensive and offended.
I would have been deeply worried and pondered what would cause my DD to lash out a baby, I would be deeply worried. I would profusely apologizes to the other dm, I would feel embarrassed, ashamed..I saw none of this at all, and that wasn't the only occasion, the child lashed out at my own a few times and the DM shrugged it off with a roll of the eyes, asked her child what happened and he lied. She just went " oh, silly" and that was that.

Bubbles I am not necessarily thinking of a special school that exists right now.
I am not going to say a thing to the school myself unless its MY dd who gets hurt, then yes I will be in there.
I dont know what other special schools there are. I just think - having been a by stander to this sort of on going - un ceasing behaviour for a long long time now, years, I do feel a special school, with a different type of approach should exist for dc like this boy. I am actually assuming there are no SN needs there so not a special school in that regard I mean a totally different type of school that may match his needs more.

The front you see doesn't necessarily reflect how parents feel inside.
If they are actually in denial then this isn't going to help the child.

The stabbed child would be told they need to learn to not be such a victim .

... sorry, just to add, I speak from bitter experience. This has touched a raw nerve with me as my DS was bullied in his last school. And don't expect any sympathy on here, if you confront the bully you will be told that he probably comes from a troubled home so you can't be mean to him, when in my experience, most bullies tend to be nasty, spoilt, over-indulged entitled little c*nts.

Sorry, as I said, it touched a raw nerve .