Still forgetting capital letters and full stops at end of yr4 and poor writing generally

[MGMidget]

I am wondering just how bad my son's writing is for his age. He hardly remembers a full stop or capital letter in his writing. Anything he writes is effectively one long sentence without any breaks. No capital letters or full stops! He is 9 years old, in year 4 and one of the oldest in his year. He is a bright chap in some ways and reads well for his age but I am worried about his writing. It is also messy, he struggles to keep it on the line, forgets some details like crossing 't's so they look like 'l's and tends to write quite big. I have been getting him to to regular writing exercises (a few minutes on most days) for nearly a year now just to improve letter formation/neatness and I keep reminding him about punctuation. However, I am not seeing much improvement! I wondered how usual this is at this age?

What does his teacher say?

I'm interested in how to improve a boy's handwriting too.

No advice but my DS is a year younger and his writing sounds very similar.

He is also bright with a head full of ideas but he just struggles to write them down Spelling tests - he knows how to spell the words but will lose marks for forgetting to cross his t's and dot his I's. His teacher told me she feels awful doing this but has no option as neat and correct handwriting is a requirement

He does go to additional writing sessions once or twice a week but I can't see it is helping. His teacher has said she thinks he will never be a neat writer which i feel quite sad about - he is so keen to learn but it's really putting him off doing homework etc.

Do some rainbow writing for helping with punctuation. Do each sentence in a different color. Before changing colours make a big play of putting in a full stop and give a reminder that every time a new colour is used, a capital letter is needed.

Mine sounds very similar and he's Dec 2007 so probably very similar to yours? The sentence thing isn't so bad but he almost always has to be reminded to write both his first and last names with capitals (first name fine, surname apparently optional).

He crosses his "t"s backwards too and his writing isn't dreadful but isn't great. Interestingly though, he and my older DD have had an argument about something and he managed to write a note to me, apparently from her, in incredibly neat handwriting so he can do it if he wants to........!

We enrolled my son in art classes. They beautified his handwriting so now it is at least legible. The capital letters and full stops come with nagging.

I have P6s leaving me who write the most wonderful stories, letters, reports etc but who put capital letters in the oddest places! I'm only glad that they'll spen d their adult life typing.

I have a late 2007 dd with questionable spelling and punctuation. Also does things like backwards 5s. No idea what's "normal", sorry.

Have you had him checked for mears irlen syndrome? My daughters are/we're both the same and the overlays have helped. Also could be dysgraphia a particular type of dyslexia to do with writing.

Do you let him read aloud what he has written to you?
If he read it aloud, he may realise the need for punctuation?
(Unless he has some kind of undiagnosed difficulty.)

Get his eyesight checked.

My ds handwriting improved dramatically once undiagnosed longsightedness was discovered !

This sounds identical to my DS last year when he was the same age.

We brought him to a specialist optometrist who does school vision assessments. It turned out he was long sighted, but also has a number of visual dysfunctions such as contrast sensitivity and poor eye tracking. DS now wears special tinted lenses for reading & writing. It could also be dysgraphia.

The British Association of Behavioural Optometrists babo.co.uk can do these specialist tests for about £250. It is not the same as a standard eye test.

It has made a tremendous difference to DS. I can tell by looking at a piece of writing whether or not he was wearing his glasses when he did it. He also missed a lot of school last year because of mystery illnesses yet would be fine by lunch-time. He hasn't missed a single day this year, and I am sure he was just finding school and his eyesight difficulties too overwhelming. It was incredible to watch when he put on his glasses for the first time, and he announced that this was what the world really looked like. He had never known he had eyesight problems because he had nothing to compare it too.

I would really recommend getting him tested.

I also meant to add that the optometrist we went to said that doing lots of writing practice can be detrimental because it destroys their confidence. We had countless notes in school workbooks saying 'you must write neater' and I could hear the frustration that the optometrist had when he was saying people just didn't't understand that children with visual dysfunctions simply can't see the words clearly enough to discern whether they have crossed 't's or put spaces between the words, or are writing on the line. What was particularly illuminating was that during the appointment my DS disclosed that he often sees words spinning on the page or jumping around. I was but the optometrist said it was very common, and again, that adult scepticism was really damaging.

If you are in NI I can recommend the optometrist we went to.

Assuming no visual problems and that it's lack of understanding or rushing...
Rainbow sentences have been mentioned already.
Also, try a green pencil for capital letters and a red pencil for full stops. If he's written more than 5 lines without colour then he must go back to check.
I used this to good effect with several yr4s who just tended to race along and forget to punctuate. It also meant that I could check from a distance and silently hold up a coloured pencil to remind them.

Thank you everyone. Some really good suggestions here. I did get his eyes checked a few months ago and he now has glasses for mild shortsightedness. I haven't had a specialist test done that is suggested though so I could look into that. We saw an private occupational therapist for about 6 months (once every two weeks) to try and work on his handwriting. She carried out an initial assessment before starting sessions. At the end of it I don't think there was much improvement in his handwriting. I also followed a course with him last summer which included some upbeat DVDs and handwriting exercises. This did help a bit and means that he now joins up is writing instead of printing but its still messy, uneven etc. We also had a session on the NHS with an occupational therapist and were referred to another handwriting programme.

It feels a bit like searching for a needle in a haystack in pinpointing if there is some sort of learning difficulty/disability at play here! I am aware of dysgraphia. I think he probably fits the profile for this but noone has diagnosed him. It seems to simply be a medical term for poor handwriting!

The school have suggested that we think about enrolling him on a touch typing course this summer holiday which I am looking into. However, it would mean more homework/exercises to get his touchtyping up to speed and he still needs to improve his writing for some subjects where handwritten answers are a requirement.

It does sound as though there are other year 4s with similar problems though. Does anyone know if a child with such problems does eventually grow out of them and become a good writer or would the signs at this age indicate my son is always going to find this difficult?

I am worried because he is bright in a number of ways but I think this is going to hold him back increasingly as the expectations for written work rise during his school career. I will of course keep working on this with him and implement the suggestions here such as the rainbow writing. His school suggested something similar - putting coloured dots in the margin to indicate a few of the mistakes he needs to review. In their case the dots were to be for punctuation/capital letters and for spelling - not all mistakes as it would be too demoralising but a few to get him focusing and checking his work!

Oh and PS - the school don't think he is dyslexic!

Dysgraphia is much more than just a description of poor handwriting. I'm not an expert, but did some reading around it when I knew something wasn't right with DS & his writing. It's got something to do with the way the brain is wired.

It is just over a year since my DS was diagnosed, and it seems we had been on a similar path - I have so many handwriting practice books, had OT assessments, was considering a educational psychologist assessment etc. I stumbled across the information about the school vision assessment because a friend happened to mention that her son had dysgraphia and I told her I had been doing some research into it as I thought DS may be affected. This is who we went to: Lees Opticians but the BABO link I posted previously also do similar assessments.

The difference in my DS once he got his tinted lenses was really quite transformational. His handwriting is still less advanced than my DD's when she was a similar age, but it has come on so well and his confidence has grown.

Prior to this, the school weren't a great help. DS had been through a dyslexia screening test, but that was about it - and it was negative. No strategies for improving handwriting (I love the rainbow sentences & Green for capitals idea), and the comments just seemed to be that he needed to try harder . Once he got his diagnosis the SENCO got on board and his school have really helped since. The SENCO has introduced a daily programme of exercises called Primary Movement which also seemed to have helped.

I'm aware there may be lots of different reasons for your DS' handwriting issues, but it might be worth checking out. You may have gathered that I'm quite evangelical about it .

My son largely grew out of it.
He can write beautifully when he puts his mind to it. He just had poor manual dexterity and is left handed so it was worse.
Keep him practicing, coloring etc.

Hi, MGMidget ,I’ve just come across this thread as I'm starting to think my ds's troubles may be more than just rushing work as he is also still forgetting Capitals and fullstops after contant reminders before every single piece of work he does. He's had a bit of intervention at school and I 've tried all the rainbow letters, etc but it still doesn’t seem to be embedded in his writing. I just wondered if your ds had made any more progress or if you managed to find anything else that helped?

Could also be dyspraxia/ dcd as well/ instead of dysgraphia

I am a teacher with a 9 year old son with many of the difficulties outlined by OP.
I have tried lots of different strategies to improve the quality of his writing, use capitals and full stops appropriately, consistently write on the line, forms letters correctly, orientate letters in the right direction, have consistency with spacing between words, not use spaces in the middle of a word .....
He is now in year 4. When he wants to write about something he is able to use interesting adjectives, sentence starters etc but the content is still quite muddled and can be a series of long meandering sentences. If I remind him about capitals etc it is generally completely ineffective, he sometimes even writes his own name without a capital. He occasionally uses capitals in the middle of a word. When I ask him why he says it's easier.
I did an online dyslexia test (recommended by a dyslexia organisation) which was inconclusive. I am not in a position to pay for costly tests to identify the problem if there is one.
Neatness is something which he has some control over and he is able to produce reasonably tidy work however I think his problems with spacing, capitals, organizing ideas coherently are not due to carelessness or rushing . I agree that doing lots of writing practice is pointless and soul destroying.
I haven't found the answer but the test recommended up thread
The British Association of Behavioral Optometrists babo.co.uk
is something I would consider.

Touch Typing is vital for these kids. Touch Type Read and Spell and Nessy Fingers both great. DS2 started using a lap top in class in Yr 6 and his grades have gone up. DS1 also used laptop from Yr8. Hand on heart don’t waste money on OT for handwriting issues at 9/10+. Behavioural optometry was life changing for DS1. Both my boys have dyspraxic tendencies ( not officially diagnosed). We bought the laptops for our boys to use and school have been supportive.

Just wondering how your ds is getting on @MGMidget? My ds is having a really hard time at school in year 4 with handwriting and being fairly constantly told off for capitals and full stops. I am looking into ot assessment, but school do not seem to want to account for his difficulty with any other reason that he is obstinate. He has had cognitive assessment which showed strength in all areas except fine motor skills. I'm at a total loss

Here is an update as requested! I am sorry to say I can't report a miracle improvement in handwriting!

We persisted with trying to improve handwriting as well as punctuation into the start of year 6. He was still, frustratingly, making a lot of the same mistakes. Writing slowly improved but still not good. I had tests done by a behavioural optomotrist towards end of year 5 which suggested no significant issue requiring specialist exercises but she wanted to see him again in six months so we are going back in February. She did point out that my son is bi-lateral (I think she said right handed and left side dominant but I may have got the sides mixed up). Basically to do handwriting and fine motor skills with his right hand his processing speed is slowed down as his brain messages are having to cross over the mid-line all the time. He is left side dominant for some things and the left eye (I think) was dominant. Basically the dominant eye was not the one she would expect for a right handed person. She suggested that might account for his poor handwriting.

I had him assessed by school for visual processing tests at the start of year 6 (well as soon as they could fit him in) and I asked if they could also assess his writing speed. The school assessment showed he had slow processing in a number of areas broadly connected with visual processing and also had very slow handwriting. The tests didn't indicate dyslexia, especially as my DS scored very highly on reading comprehension and phonetical skills. At this point they suggested I saw an Ed Psych for assessment as I told them we were entering him for 11+ exams in January and they thought he should qualify for extra time in exams.

The Ed Psych confirmed the same (in fact worse) results. She also recommended that in the future he consider moving onto laptop for school work. When we did a mock English 11+ exam shortly afterwards he did badly on the creative writing part. The teacher dismissed this as simply being because he timed himself badly in the exam and would get used to it. When I talked to my DS he insisted he had spent the right amount of time on the creative writing but he just couldn't write enough in the time. Then I panicked and enrolled him on an intensive touchtyping course. We were just in time to request use of the laptop for 11+ exams and get agreement from the school to allow its use at school. This does seem to have improved his writing content. He still makes some of the mistakes (forgetting capitals or punctuation for example but I am definitely seeing a noticeable improvement in content, volume and accuracy of his writing. I also think he is enjoying it more which leads to greater willingness to write more and hence more practice and improvement!

He is still handwriting for some school work as it isn't always practical to use a laptop and they are now giving him an extra class a week on handwriting. I am also planning to encourage writing practice at home again once all 11+ exams are over although I now have to add typing practice on top (and he enjoys that more!).

I am not too worried about switching onto laptop making him stand out as 'different' because some other children are doing this in his year. When he sat his 11+ exams there was a little group at each school doing exams on the laptop (in fact quite a sizeable group and there were large numbers sitting the exams at each school).

PS - I meant to say at the end "as there were large numbers sitting the exams at each school".

Gosh thanks @MGMidget
What an amazing package of support you have put in place for your ds. How did he do in his 11+? And what assessments did the ed psych use? I'm nervously starting the private assessment route. Does your ds seem happy in other respects? My ds absolutely hates school at the moment