What provision should be made for 'more able' students?

[JammieDodgem]

I know the old G&T scheme is no longer a thing but when it was it seemed all primary schools had a policy available on the website and locally I was aware of more able primary pupils going to workshops at local secondaries etc.

I now have 2 dc at primary and both are doing well but I feel their needs are not being especially well catered for. My yr 2 child is well ahead of where she needs to be for the summer SATS and I feel that for this reason she's not being given much attention at all. I'm not especially into pushing her on or her being treated differently but I am really concerned that she doesn't feel particularly engaged or excited by what's going on. The school doesn't seem to offer much to enrich the curriculum and no lunch or after school clubs so I keep her busy and interested outside of school but am beginning to feel I want more from her school experience. There doesn't seem to be any policy or requirement for them to lay out their strategies for those doing well.

Is that reasonable? How do other schools manage these situations?

I'm not sure if this is the correct thread really so apologies if it isn't but I've done an advanced search and can't find one which seems more appropriate.

My son is in year 4 (9 years old) and on Friday I got an email from the school to say that he has been "...identified as more able in reading". The school subscribe to a website called "Potential Plus" and gave us a log in but I've not found anything of any great help on this yet.

In year 2 DS was made a "free reader" and has read whatever he has wanted ever since. However the school have said in the email that they want him to read books in dark blue band.

I've looked online but I can't find this band. The example book he bought home is by Anthony Horowitz called "The Diamond Brothers" which he read this weekend but found really unchallenging. (He enjoyed AH's Alex Rider books though).

Is this ORT or some other scheme? The only book bands I find mention of online are those he completed in yr2. Any ideas please? Are book bands for KS2 a new thing? I don't want my son to stop reading for pleasure but he will if he's bored/unchallenged.

I know I need to see his teacher so I'll make an appointment to see her. I just wanted to understand more before I turn up

TIA

This is dark blue band ort and examples of books in there:
www.badgerlearning.co.uk/ecommerce/primary-resources/library-reading-boxes/banded-reading-boxes/dark-blue-banded-pack.aspx

I agree with bojorojo that it’s about the individual teachers rather than necessarily being a school-wide problem. JammieDodgem, have you talked to your DD’s teacher about your concerns? A busy teacher (especially when trying to get a number of pupils with additional needs through KS1 SATS) may just need a polite reminder – it’s worth trying this before considering changing schools!

In YR my DD’s experienced teacher seemed to ask the right sort of questions to keep the brighter ones motivated (DD would comment that phonics and maths were ‘easy’ when they had a supply teacher). In Y1 such differentiation wasn't happening, so after a term I had a couple of short chats with the teacher, which have resulted in an improvement in the form of extension activities and ‘challenge’ questions.

I expect each teacher to be different, but so far feel listened to. I’m sure some years will be better than others, but if we have a ‘weak’ teacher one year I hope we’ll be able to ride it out and supplement at home.

After that is red
www.badgerlearning.co.uk/ecommerce/primary-resources/library-reading-boxes/banded-reading-boxes/dark-red-banded-pack.aspx

In terms of reading I learned a long time ago that the school cannot keep up with DD, great for DD as she has a mum who loves reading and has brought her a whole library already, all the classics, modern and old, and all the books she has found out by herself and wants to read.

I take school reading with a pinch of salt, and concentrate on what we do at home. The problem I have is, if they cant support her reading properly, what else do they miss? What about dc who have no parents to support reading at home?
Threads about grammars at the moment but what can a bright pupil do, if school letting them down on this basic?

DD read 6 books, thick, proper chapter books over half term ( warrior cats) at school she is on ORT 14. I don't moan anymore because some of the books are interesting esp historical ones....

Thank you Tomrrowillbeachicken I've looked at dark blue and dark red. There doesn't seem to be much between them - I guess it becomes more subtle at KS2.

My son has read several in both of these bundles so I will take a look through them and try and work out why one is blue and the other red. He's reading Artemis Fowl at the moment so I'll let him finish this and then take a trip to the library.

Thanks GinMummy, I've spoken to our current teacher recently who was reassuring but unable to give any specifics. And they agreed that there is a real gap in enriching clubs/activities because teaching staff are too stretched.

Unfortunately we have had a few teachers over this academic year due to mat leave/job shared/fixed term contracts and so I never feel sure anyone has really got a good handle on things.

It's really difficult. My philosophy was to leave it alone until the child complained - my compliant dd1 whinged a bit in KS1 but really didn't start to become unhappy about the lack of challenge until Y3. My less compliant dd2 is already showing she's unhappy (loudly!), and she's Y1.

Until that time, I figured that it just gave them more time and energy for music, dance, drama, sport etc, and booked them in to lots of that. In particular, learning an instrument has been really good - it's one of the few things that dd1 doesn't get right first time, and it's been excellent for getting past frustration, having to practice etc.

In terms of getting more from school, a poster here (somewhere) has described the process more accurately than I can, but it's something along the lines of:
Autumn - teacher still assessing, not sure levels are correct, child may have forgotten stuff over the summer (except mine don't)
Easter - yes, definitely able but easily catered for in class, will see about some more challenging work if necessary
Summer - nothing has changed, have a chat with the teacher, they say it'll be more stretching next year
And repeat.

The best way I've found to work with the school to make changes has been to talk to the SENCO and the class teacher at the same time - not sure why, perhaps the SENCO has more experience, or is more senior and so it sticks?

It seems to me Jammie, that you are describing a school that is struggling. It is often the case that progress falls off when supply teachers come in and there is not settled teaching. That is why Ofsted place so much emphasis on settled teaching. Therefore whether or not children are labelled a gifted and talented it would make little difference because supply teachers just do not do the same in depth job as permanent teachers.

We do have a teacher tasked to ensure all children we think are bright do as well as possible and they do have enrichment activities. I do not buy this idea that staff are too busy. It is more to do with the ethos of the school and what is expected of the teachers. A good school will ensure children get music lessons, sport and other enriching activities as well as lessons which differentiate for ability. I have also found bright children like to do lots of things and they get pleasure from them. Where my DD's went to primary school, at KS2, there was virtually no homework. Yet 4 in her class have gone to Oxbridge. It was not a particularly good school but most the bright children enjoyed their extra curricular activities such as music and drama, sport and dance. Their lives were very full and this kept them very busy and happy.

Also, where I am now a Governor, teachers assess each topic covered with the results being entered into the computer program twice a term. Therefore a pattern emerges very quickly regarding who is making better than expected progress on the topics covered. They cannot assess on what has not been covered, such as the Summer Term curriculum. Each topic should have extension work and children should be asked to use what they have learned with more challenging tasks and questions. Also peer to peer teaching is used so children explain concepts to others. Such techniques can happen very quickly if the teacher knows the level of work completed by the child the year before and they are able to build on that knowledge. This is why continuity of teaching and accurate assesssment is vital. Not doing any of this for a year is not acceptable.

YogaDrone, if you like some comprehension resources for your ds, I recommend readtheory.

Quite interesting short passages with questions. Topic is varied, and gives us quite a lot to talk about, as well as gives my ds(yr4, 9 so same age) new vocabulary.

Thank you irvineoneohone , I will take a look at this

Yogadrone another list here that might be interesting
www.badgerlearning.co.uk/ecommerce/primary-resources/library-reading-boxes/confident-fluent-readers/age-9-11-challenging-reads.aspx

Is it unusual to be identified in reception?

Identified as gifted? I don't think so, since the difference would be huge.
But I think it's equally possible to be identified later.

Yes, as gifted. But tbf I think it's his language skills that may have identified him and the fact he can confuse a TA as he talks about his odd knowledge.

I have nothing much to add. I am still trying to get my DD's school to actually do something to challenge her (she has been complaining of being bored for over a year now). Thus far, nothing has changed.

I know it is hard to extend kids who break the ceiling of the standard extension work, and sadly, too often they just simply aren't extended beyond the standard ceiling of extension in the class.

It frustrates me because although 1 in 1000 or even 1 in 100 might be reasonably rare in term of a class, or a school, in the general population there are many children who fall into that category. I do think it would be good if there could be a discussion about what you do about those children who are beyond the realm of standard class room levels. It is such a waste that they should spend their time bored, or thinking that everything academic is easy. Eventually they will learn it isn't, and won't be prepared for the shock.

Yes, I totally get what you are saying, Hidden. But that's why we always seek help here and get worried, stressed etc. Your dd will be fine, because she has you, and I hope my ds would be fine as well!

i do think there's something to be said for pushing them outside of school in things like music so they get used to trying if the academic side comes easily. That's certainly something that we can do.

It is such a waste that they should spend their time bored, or thinking that everything academic is easy. Eventually they will learn it isn't, and won't be prepared for the shock
well provision isn't necessarily going to improve at secondary.

hello I wish the outside school stuff could act as a complement to what goes on in school, not a substitute for the types of character building that are intended to be integral in education. My kids school puts such strong emphasis on personal development. At the moment I feel like they are talking about everyone other than my child. Instead of teaching her that it is okay to fail, and about intrinsic motivation, they are teaching her that they don't care what she is telling them, and that she should just give up on wanting to learn, because they aren't going to help.

(Irving my initial optimism is waning...and I'm beginning to realise that I may have to get organised and give her that stimulation outside school, so she doesn't loose her interest in learning)

hello was supposed to read fake - not sure quite how one became the other! But hello anyway!

we worry about this too hidden, I don't feel I can rely on the school to do anything properly. Bojo, the online assessments - that's not a state school presumably? I get really no information except that DD is 'fine'. I agree hidden DD's school seems to want them to be good at accepting failure more than learning any maths! The only thing I'd say is both DH and I were bored, coasting lazy students and we managed to rise to the challenge when it came to us at university and most likely our children will too. At least that's my hope.

Bojo in my experience, or rather my DD's, the type of extension work they have is extension for those who are working above average but not anywhere near far enough average to extend those children at the extremes of the distribution. What is frustrating is that if you think about a children with mild learning disability, they would be within a state education system, but would be very likely to have a learning support worker, or at the very least a statement, in order that everyone understands their needs and their special needs can be met. And yet children at the other extreme have no such help. Instead, they have to get bored, or explain to other children how things work. My DD has gotten pretty good at that. She got a certificate for it. But it is NOT what inspires a child to learn, to think, to reason, and to develop. It is a useful skill, but not one that is going to create any intrinsic motivation or lifelong passion for exploration and discovery.

We complain that there are not enough children (girls in particular) who are going into STEM disciplines. Yet, you get children at this age who would be thrilled to be given really hard and thought provoking maths problems. But they aren't. They are bored. Unable to go beyond the year's curriculum. Not able to be taught Junes material in March, or the following year the year early. And then they get to September, and they have to 'consolidate' those concepts they had mastered and extended two years earlier.

And, I am going to say, although I'm not a teacher, I don't think it is fair to blame the teachers. The teachers in my DD's school work incredibly hard. The teachers in the other local schools work incredibly hard. It is just hard to prepare work that covers an ability spread of what is essentially 4 or 5 academic years (or should be, if the work was suitably differentiated), whilst doing all the admin, and marking all the work in such a way that will be Ofsted approved.

This tread has touched a sore spot. Can you tell :) Rant over

To be honest Op, there are usually a large gap between the lower attainers in early years and y1, and the top attainers. Teachers are used to this, in happens in most classes. At our school, teachers have been ok at supporting the more able children but not by giving them an early label of Gifted.

Our schools doesn't not nave a policy specific to G&T children but they generally support them through more advanced reading schemes, small group work, extension work especially in maths, but in my experience (I have children in y5 and 6) G&T is more obvious when they reach year 3 and 4. In the infants years, many will catch up, and attainment is fluid so children that were middle attainers in infants may suddenly 'bloom' into more able children.

At the moment many schools are taking the approach of 'mastery' for more able children, as opposed to just going through the curriculum as fast as possible. So more able children are encouraged to apply their knowledge on complex problems and are encouraged to be able to demonstrate a deeper understanding of the item (as opposed to ticking boxes and moving on to the next topic).

My youngest DS is very advanced in maths, and ahead in all subjects. We have found that some teachers are better at understanding how he works and what makes him tick, whereas other teachers have just been able to support him as opposed to challenge him. But this is the same for all children - the style of teaching will be a fit for some children and not others. We have never, however, walked up to a teacher and says 'my ds is very advanced what are you doing about it'. It was more a question of discussing how he can be supported in the classroom alongside his friends.

Just to say, also, that a vaste majority of children, whatever their attainment, do get bored at one point or another in their learning days... I was pretty average at school and bored most of the time...

Although all kids might get bored at some point, there is a difference in bored because you are uninterested and bored because you are interested but unchallenged.