Am I being weird and paranoid or rightly cautious

[romanrainsalot]

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DD (aged 5) has been given a letter re a school trip to local farm - one of those family day out types with petting zoo things as well as part of it being a real working farm.

Its an all day trip, needs to take a lunch.

Thing is, DD and I went a few months ago and whilst it was worthwhile and I don't mind her going again, when we went to wash our hands the water was cold more like freezing in all of the taps we tried, in all of the hand washing blocks.

I hate washing hands in cold water, it feels like they are not washed. I hate the thought of DD not being able to wash hands properly, especially at a farm and then they will be having lunch there. I can just imagine her ending up ill.

Would I be a) weird and paranoid to mention it to teacher or b)rightly cautious?

Thanks in advance

Speak to any infection control person...one of the most powerful sessions I ever did was looking at bacteria on my hands under ultra violet light. Once after using alcohol hand rub and again after hand washing in cold water. Hand washing won ...massively.

The alcohol gel simply spread the germs around.

Anti bacteria gel isn't any good

So why do they have it on every hospital ward for visitors?

I don't know any "infection control people". I just looked up a few studies though and they mostly suggested that alcohol gel was just as good as hand washing, with some even claiming that it's MORE effective than hand washing (www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC117885/)

Because the gel is designed to combat the type of germs found on humans not on animals

Eh tend to have it on every ward because it's better than nothing. More visitors will comply with hand gel than would comply with hand washing. It's a form of prevention but it isn't ideal

However in the case of the OP I would be fairly sure that the staff are assisting children with hand washing where needed. Schools tend to be pretty hot on this kind of thing.

Go without a school and it's amazing the number of people who don't bother.

"Ensure hands are washed and dried thoroughly with soap and water immediately after any contact with animals and before eating and drinking. Supervise children when washing their hands. Hand gels/wipes are not an acceptable substitute for proper handwashing."
http://www.visitmyfarm.org/component/k2/download/312_8d8782c76c24cc53d85581d627ec1c9b

I'd still advise kids to wash their hands with soap and water, of course, but I think it's best to go with the scientific evidence before making sweeping statements that alcohol gel "is useless". That's how unhelpful myths are perpetuated.

It's the official advice for farm visits

Okay but that doesn't change anything I said in my previous post.

So it's still a myth even though the DfE and Farm industry say it 🤔

The following three blanket statements, made by various posters on this page, are myths that quite clearly are being perpetuated without scientific basis:

"The gel are [sic] nowhere near as good as good water and soap"

"The alcohol gel simply spread [sic] the germs around"

"Anti bacteria gel isn't any good"

Hmm! Seen visual proof of how bad gel is compared with hand washing for removing germs. It's just nowhere near as good.

I will say I am going back five years in my experience but seeing visual proof of bacteria on my hands after using both hand gel and then soap and water there was NO competition. Hand washing is superior .

Not saying it cannot help...it clearly can..hospital staff use a two stage approach with hand washing AND gel. Gel alone is nowhere near as good.
I wouldn't trust it anyway.

In a nutshell, alcohol gels have a part to play as an addition to hand washing. Used in their own they didn't t meet disinfection standards.

In any case ...the child in this case is young, she needs supervision to wash her hands. If she does that then the risk of any infection is minimal.

Dr. Richard T. Ellison III, professor of medicine and molecular genetics & microbiology at University of Massachusetts Medical School
"An antibacterial hand gel can substitute for hand washing when there is no organic material (e.g. dirt) on an individual's hands. The alcohol antibacterial preparations are highly effective at killing bacteria and viruses, but only if there is direct contact of alcohol with the microorganisms. So, if there is a lot of dirt on the hands, the antibacterial hand gel may not reach the microorganisms under the dirt.

In addition, the antibacterial hand gels will not remove the dirt. So, if you can see or feel some dirt on your hands, it's best to wash with soap and water. Soaps can help break down organic material and putting your hands under water will then rinse it away."

"Experts say washing with soap and water is first choice, especially if you have visible dirt on your hands. Sanitizer can't cut through that grime. Hand sanitizer is great for when you can't get to soap and water, and it's actually more effective at eliminating germs because it kills them rather than just removing them.
You should supervise young children when they use alcohol-based hand sanitizer, but poison control centers tell us it tastes so terrible that kids don't usually eat much and don't suffer any ill effects."

Thank you Mrz for posting more of the facts rather than perpetuating the unfounded myths with blanket statements.

YABVU I grew up on a farm. Ate apples straight off the tree after petting lambs and feeding the other animals. Im hardly ever ill. What harm can it do. If in doubt pack her some sanigel and chill out.

Not a myth if it's true red

Gel is as effective as soap and water for visibly clean hands and is recommended by the World Health Organisation as the sole cleanser of choice unless hands are visibly dirty. Hand Hygiene Guide.

It is not the case that soap and water is better, or that alcohol gel rubs should only be used if you don't have access to soap and water, or that you should use soap and water after so many applications of gel.

However, if there is any visible dirt, soap and water is the only way to go.

Not a myth if it's true red

I think you're confused. Your last couple of posts were agreeing with me.

The original reason I commented was because multiple people were saying

"The gel are [sic] nowhere near as good as good water and soap"

"The alcohol gel simply spread [sic] the germs around"

"Anti bacteria gel isn't any good"

which simply isn't true. I wasn't trying to single you out specifically, but these things need to be called out sometimes because the way these myths get perpetuated is by people reading and then repeating stuff like this without verifying their validity or checking the facts.

You then went and checked some facts, and made new posts stating that

"An antibacterial hand gel can substitute for hand washing when there is no organic material (e.g. dirt) on an individual's hands. The alcohol antibacterial preparations are highly effective at killing bacteria and viruses"

and

"it's actually more effective at eliminating germs because it kills them rather than just removing them"

A much more well-rounded view of the issue.

My kids have never been on a farm visit so I don't know how much actual dirt they get on their hands, but hopefully those kinds of posts leave the OP and other possible readers more informed.

Also, my original position was that they should just wash their hands with soap in the cold water, because water temperature is largely irrelevant and the OP is worrying too much.

This tangent was not an attempt by me to say that they should just take alcohol gel and use that instead.

Am I a bad parent because l it wouldn't ever even occur to me to wonder about something like this?

Were they!
Facts
Soap and water alone remove 99% of germs
Antibacterial soap and water 99% of germs
Alcohol hand gel removes 99% of germs provided the hands are clean and the gel contains at least 60% alcohol (not recommended for children )
Alcohol free gel are 60-95% less effective than either ordinary soap and water or alcohol based gel

For a farm visit soap and water more effective for farm visits where hands won't necessarily be clean enough for alcohol based gels to work.

How much organic matter do you think children will be in contact with at a farm red?

mrz

As I've said multiple times now, I was challenging some unhelpful blanket statements. You seem to have conceded that there is more to it than "Anti bacteria gel isn't any good". That's really all there is to it. My position regarding the actual content of the OP was something separate entirely, which I explained quite clearly. I won't be posting again on the matter because we'd just be going in circles.

Yes, for a farm visit, soap and water is best.