Dreadful KS2 results WWYD?

[ChinchillaFur]

My yr 3 DD's lovely village primary school has published their KS2 results and to me they seem really low. I have compared to the nearest schools in our area and they all seem a lot higher. Only 30% of yr6 passed all 3 - reading, writing & maths. The progress indicators are all between minus 2 and minus 5. On the government website they fall into the bottom fifth (RED) for all 3 columns, which it says is the bottom 10% of schools.

Any primary people around that could advise if they really are as bad as I think they are? Not sure what I can do anyway as DD is really happy there. I also know they are due OFSTED which might sort out any issues.

Err yes I said I would worry if I were OP.

We are in a similar boat. DC1 plays an instrument and does 2 sports clubs out of school. We have considered moving to another school a 40min drive away who get better SATS results but I think the burden on the commute for us would be too much. DH is keen to get a tutor for 2 hours a week to make up for how 'crap' the school is. TBH yours sounds worse than ours so yes I would worry...

.. I should add all of the schools around us did pretty poorly so I think it's a combination of school bring cosy and not as target focused as those in London etc and also the parents don't care (predominantly white working class so less driven than Chinese, SE Asian etc). It's a stereotype but if you check the Doe website you will see white working class is well down the achievement table..

We don't have SATS in Scotland. I knew fairly well how my children were doing at school by the quality of their work/how they managed with their homework. I would never judge a primary school based on standardised testing, it doesn't give an accurate picture (as a pp demonstrated). Are your children thriving at school, talking enthusiastically about what they've been doing, is school a welcoming environment for pupils and parents? Much more important than bloody stressful tests at such a young age.

It's probably worth casting our minds back to the pre-SATs, pre-Ofsted era of education. I went to a large number of primary schools. All would have said they were doing fine, all the parents would have said they were OK schools and that their children were doing OK there based on the quality of their work - because everyone went to their local school, and there was virtually no way of comparing schools with one another. All were 'nice' village or suburban schools, one was abroad but on the English model.

In actual fact, the education offered in each school was extraordinarily different. My DBs and I went up and down years like yoyos, because when we moved school we would find that we were massively ahead, or massively behind, compared to that particular school's norm.

OK, headline standardised testing and its high profile use in comparing schools is not great, and like all measurement systems it skews the provision. Progress is a better measure. Contextual value added, which has since been taken out of the data, was even better. Equally Ofsted grades are not always directly comparable - is a school which got Outstanding in 2008 better or worse than one that got Good in 2015? However, when a set of data, and the text of an Ofsted report, and personal knowledge of a school are taken together, they do give a much better picture of a school than was ever possible in the past - being a 'nice village school' is not NECESSARILY enough for all children.

I think seeing as she's in Yr3 there is time for the school to massively improve (and like you say poor results and imminent ofsted are likely to also spark this). Why not buy (if you can afford it) a Yr 3/4 maths and english workbook from Amazon. If she can sail through most of it by the end of the year/over the summer you probably don't need to worry, if she struggles with them that might indicate cause for more concern.

Yes to those who say progress is most important. School in my area 93 % are free school meals , ofsted rating is outstanding.

cantkeepawayforeve I am more concerned about the minus numbers for the progress between KS1 and KS2 rather than the absolute numbers. This indicates that the children haven't made the progress that they should have done in those 4 years compared to similar children (ie. they have fallen behind?)

Mrscog We are lucky yes, we can afford to buy workbooks etc and are both capable involved parents who will do anything extra required. My thought is thought, that if she was being pushed a little more at school we shouldn't/wouldn't have to do this. I will buy a year3/4 book and see how she gets on.

I think I might have to have a talk with the head and see what her plan is for improving things. I also know one of the governors a bit, so might try asking her.

The school is pretty idyllic, year 5&6 have forest school one day a week, all years go swimming, they do lots of art, plays, music and sports especially for a small school. I think it is somwhere in between the 2 schools described above tbh. Lots of supportive parents, a few that don't care, and the majority just happy to use their local village school. Can you tell I live in the North of England, not London?

All of the things you've just mentioned would carry more weight for me than ofsted. How do you know she isn't being pushed? A child who is happy at a supportive school, who is getting a well-rounded education is more likely to do well in life generally than one who is unhappy at school, and whose life is based around cramming for tests and being labelled a 'failure' at age 8.

Do you think she is behind for her age?

I was concerned about DC1 so I bought some Bond books and she is able to get over 80% in the ones for her age band so I am not too concerned. In the holidays we do some maths and english workbooks.

I would definitely make an appointment with the head and try to understand what is going on.

I don't think she is behind for her age (at the moment) no. Certainly not in reading and writing. She can read pretty much whichever book she chooses to, currently enjoying lots of Enid Blyton.

Maths is harder to judge, so she could possibly be behind. She knows her 2, 5, 10 & 3 times tables and is just about there with her 4s. She sometimes brings home homework sheets with fractions and 3D shapes etc on and she can do them with us talking it through with her. She doesn't have a huge amount of confidence to do maths by herself.

Do you have the maths expectations for her year? Can she do most of them? Get some workbooks for her age group and try those.
Definitely make an appointment with the head. i would say low SATs results in all 3 subjects is not reassuring and you want to know what they plan to do to improve attainment and progress. It may be they are working hard to improve things or it may be they need a poke in the eye to get motivated?

I wouldn't consider moving school, in your situation. My ds' school is 3 form entry, and had dire results as well even though they have less than national average pp,sen and EAL children.
My ds is in yr4, so have some time before sats, more for you since your dd is in yr3. Those children who had first new sats had less time to prepare. Also school weren't sure about how it turns out either.
With engaged parents like you, I think she would be fine.
If maths is a worry, do some extra at home.
Look at these mastery assessments and help her if there's any weak point.

www.ncetm.org.uk/public/files/23305581/Mastery_Assessment_Y3_Low_Res.pdf

www.ncetm.org.uk/public/files/23305622/Mastery_Assessment_Y4_Low_Res.pdf

I think the SATs score is quite accurate to help you know the accademic level of that school. I agree it is not necessary about the teaching ability, as you may have low intake and the teacher work really hard but still has low outcome. However, no matter how good the teaching is, if the total SATs score are low, teacher have to aim for majority of the children's level, which mean the bright kids will suffer.
For last year's SATs result, I think it is a true reflection for our city. Like DS2's primary, we have 67% pass rate, but only 1% advanced, which I know is the true picture of our school. We have been always around 4th or 5th rank of this city. And the outstanding school has higher pass rate than us, and they also have over 25% advanced children. I know that school do more works than us since reception, and parents are keen to send their children to that school.

I am a firm believer that as long as the primary school has a good atmasphere, teacher are kind, children are happy, then that's enough. We can do the top up at home. So we never tried to move into the catchment of the outstanding primary school, we just go to local good school and do some extra at home. And the result for DS1 is quite good.

Autumnsky. Sadly lots of parents cannot do the catch up work at home. They either do no know their child is behind or are not capable of doing the work with the children and, like Gary Lineker , rather resent the arguments that may result and the time it takes out of "family time". It is clear that if all parents could do catch up work, no child would be behind.

Chinchilla - you are absolutely correct that Ofsted are looking at progress. Unfortunately a lot of posters have not cottoned on to this and think inspections are all about policies and paperwork. They are not and any school that thinks this is in for a rude awakening. They are not all about SATs either. Of course there are differences in parental background and commitment that can affect progress but there are schools where progress is brilliant because the schools have managed to get the parents on board or make up for deficiencies. Inspectors look at books and look at the teaching in the schools. They know what a leafy lane school looks like and what a challenging catchment looks like.

It is extremely difficult to work out if your child is behind where they could have been in another school. As time goes by in KS2 this will be more evident. Some children will be fine but often schools who are complacent just do not know how to assess what progress is made and are very slow to get up to speed. Your decision is really about confidence in the school to improve and not about the results of Y6. Do you think the new Head is putting the measures in place to improve progress? Have you seen changes in the classroom and in the quality of teaching? . As you can see from various posts, some people are not that bothered about a school so long as their children are happy. This view is widely held when children attend smallish village schools. People will support them even if they are pretty average because they like the ethos.

Where I am a governor, we get the most progress from our brightest children. The bright absolutely do not suffer because we believe in good progress for all: SEN, PP and gifted. Good schools do not sideline any pupils.

bojorojo, your school sounds ideal.
But is it really true all bright ones do not suffer?
Do they teach at ks3+ level if the child has already mastered ks2 level to the extreme?

Absolutely it is true, irvine. We, as Governors, receive reports from the Head at our Teaching and Learning Committee that separate the children into high, medium and lower achievers based on KS1 results. We can see that all the higher achievers also make the most rapid progress. It is monitored very closely. We do not give up on the others though. It is very much in our interests, and those of the children, to ensure they all make progress. The old 2b and 2c pupils from the old way of looking at KS1 assessments tend tohave slower progress, (the lower achievers of the middle attainers). We have very few children lower than that, and those that are, have SEN.

No, we do not teach KS3. We are fortunate that we have primary Maths specialist teachers and the Maths co-ordinator is on the Maths Mastery course at the moment. This course is being rolled out across our county and she is in the first wave. I think you are probably not understanding the definition of higher ability. It is not the sort of child who is so high achieving that everyone knows they will get to Cambridge to read Maths. We have grammar schools and a very high achieving girls' independent school nearby and none of the children who are selected for these schools have been failed by our curriculum or teaching. We do not have 10 highly gifted mathematicians every year: we rarely get one. I actually asked the teachers about this when we introduced the new curriculum. In extensive teaching careers, they thought they had taught about 6-10 children who were gifted in maths. Children have achieved mastery level in the new KS2 curriculum, but this was really stretching them. If there was a highly gifted child, such as the child your are thinking about, then we would no doubt discuss provision. As we have several grammar schools nearby it is likely we would seek expertise from one of them. I would expect our teachers to be able to teach above KS2, but lots of primary teachers would struggle with this so they would really need to think how the child could be taught. We would also consider this to be a special need.

Thank you for those links irvineone - had a quick look through and she can do the majority of the mastery stuff but not much of the mastery at greater depth stuff. I feel quite reassured having seen that document.

I have also had a quick chat with my governor friend this afternoon and what she has said has reassured me greatly. Her children all go to the school and she said she could see why I am concerned (she agreed the results were appalling) but explained a few things, and also said she is not concerned and feels the school are now putting lots of things into place which are already showing improvements.

Thanks to everyone who has enabled me to talk this through on here. I do appreciate it

Thank you bojorojo
Your school really seems fantastic.

Op, greater depth is obviously above expected level at the end of year, so sounds like she is doing great. Let's hope both school will improve in the future, your dd's and my ds'.

I do not have blind faith in OFSTED at all but perhaps their impending visit will force the school to make some changes sooner rather than later?

that makes no sense, the "changes" forced by ofsted are very much to the detriment of education

I care about KS2 results because I want my bright, hardworking DD to fulfill her potential!

and you think that there is some sort of link between ks2 results and a child fulfilling their potential? Why would you think that? seriously?

This indicates that the children haven't made the progress that they should have done in those 4 years compared to similar children but who made the baseline assessment? when? and how? and in what circumstances?

And did their pay depend on them portraying children as more advanced than they actually were? Very likely

and were they skilled at cooking it to portray children as more advanced than they actually were?

Or were the children pushed and pressurised into being able to perform in assessments, without any of the foundation needed to understand and actually build on their achievements?

and were those children already performing at their full potential when they arrived?

and how has progress been measured? By whom? and do they care about the results? and are they taking the children on and needing to show that they children make progress since that assessment, in which case they will want to assess them lower.

It is not "easier" for well supported children from nurturing homes to make more progress, as they are more likely to e working at the top of their ability already.

It is NOT easy or even possible to measure progress accurately or fairly.

The whole thing is a con. None of it is meaningful at any level, statistically speaking.

I don't know why parents pay it any attention at all

Yes to those who say progress is most important. School in my area 93 % are free school meals , ofsted rating is outstanding.

and these are exactly the children for whom it is easiest to lay out evidence of progress, and the ofsted rating is meaningless

I think I might have to have a talk with the head and see what her plan is for improving things. improve in what way? What do you want to improve about the school? or do you just want the head's meaningless party political broadcast to the uncomprehending?

I also know one of the governors a bit, so might try asking her. and she is not in a position to answer to a parent.

I don't know what you want, because you don't know what you want. You want some numbers on a record sheet to change, although those numbers have no meaning or relevance to real life, and do not in any way indicate anything about the standard of education being received.You think someone should be doing something to change those numbers, but maybe everyone is just too busy getting on with education to care.

So user you would ignore OFSTED and SATs? How would you know if the school were any good? Smell?
You're not b a teacher by any chance ;-)?

Happiness is a pretty good measure.