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What the hell is this?! -Homework yr1-

93 replies

SmellySphinx · 16/01/2017 10:24

Ok it's not hell but what the buggery is all this wiffle waffle??!! Just looking through the homework for my year1 daughter. I've looked on the homework sheet and can't see anything about this Confused

I am referring to the 'words' on the right hand side by the way... I know what you lot are like!! Grin
I mean...pate...yeah, French innit or patè rather. Regardless, what is all this jibber jabber, this flim flam, this fuckery?!?!
I know I can just ask the teacher but I'm at home now and want to know!
Yes, I'm bored :) x

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MonanaGeller · 17/01/2017 13:18

I see no problem with made up words

I don't see the problem with it either. It's a tiny thing in the context of their overall schooling, and the use of pseudo-words in linguistic tests is fairly common.

It's not like a five-year-old is going to spend years wandering in the educational wilderness because the word 'prake' never recurred in any reading material and the consequent confusion/disillusion has damaged their learning capabilities beyond repair.

What they're doing in threading the phonetic components together in reading a pretend word is exactly what they need to do when threading together the phonetic components of an unfamiliar 'real' word, and I can't think of another way of gauging this that isn't confounded by the possibility that they are repeating words learned by rote.

Wickedstepmum67 · 17/01/2017 13:24

Crikey! Whatever happened to what was called comprehension in my day? (ok, admittedly that day was some time ago...all right, the 1970s) Anyhow, surely giving children passages to read where words are used contextually should help their understanding? Asking a child to write a sentence using a word correctly should also check whether they are understanding or just memorising?

MonanaGeller · 17/01/2017 13:28

Whatever happened to what was called comprehension in my day?

Nothing 'happened' to it, reading comprehension is still tested (and from memory, it forms a large component of the year 2 SATs)

unlucky83 · 17/01/2017 13:45

I think this is typical...losing sight of the bigger picture following the latest 'trend' in education.
What is most important - that children learn to read or they learn to 'decode' phonics?
I could read before I went to school -I can't remember learning to read (which probably means I found it easy).
Those learning /struggling to read I think were taught phonics (my DBs were a few years later) but we were in a v. small school so our class was made up of three years. You were put in groups of readers of similar ability so I missed the starter/phonics bit. I do remember being older and doing some sounds like -tion and -sion and not really understanding what we were being taught - surely if you could read you already knew that?

I am not a genius and my experience far from represents that of all children - but there must be children like me out there. Who from reading a lot worked out sound patterns etc - phonics - and don't struggle with new words. The ones for who learning to read by sight works...(and it does for some children - but lets down a lot too...)
I think this test would have thrown me at that age...I may or may not been able to work them out by 'decoding' - recognising patterns was more something I picked up without realising as I went along...the more I read.

I taught DD1 to read before she went to school (I thought they would be taught sight reading and I wanted to get in with basic phonics first) -as it was they were taught using Jolly phonics. I remember DD being upset that she couldn't remember the actions for some of the sounds - even though she knew what sound the letter made. I told her to not even bother trying to learn them as she knew the important bit - the sound the letters made. These nonsense words seem to be the same thing...pointless if a child can already read...

sirfredfredgeorge · 17/01/2017 13:45

My dgs who was an excellent reader refused to read 'strom ' in his phonics test. He actually said to the teacher,"This isn't a made up word it is a spelling mistake. It should be storm." His teacher said,"How would you say that word though?" He replied," I would say storm because that's what it is meant to be."

If that really happened as described, then the test was either administered wrong, or more likely your dgs has comprehension problems *. How else when told that this is the name of type of imaginary creature, would he decide it's a misspelt word?

Thal, Dal, Morok, Rill, Gond, Auton, Nimon all names of types of aliens that a kid might come across on Dr Who, thinking they're misspelt dhal, dhal, moron, pill, gone, auto, Simon would be quite limiting in a child.

  • Or most likely of all it never actually happened, and is just a strawman to suggest how really clever kids can fail the test.
Wickedstepmum67 · 17/01/2017 13:53

Thanks, Monana. I'm glad it is still there! As is probably obvious, I'm out of date on a few things and probably indulging a mid-life tendency to grouch at the modern. That said, I do suspect a tendency toward change for its own sake at times. I'm someone who would have done a lot better simply rote learning my times tables the way my own mum did. Table squares, which were in at the time I was a school kid, were total gobbledegook to me. Now someone may say rote learning is coming back into fashion....?

toptoe · 17/01/2017 14:02

The non-words test pure phonics understanding.

So 'quade' - the child will go 'qu-ay-d' as they know a_e makes an ay sound. Then they blend the word together and say 'quade'.

Your particular list of real words and non words is testing their understanding of basic consonant sounds, some diagraphs like 'th' and 'sh' (two letter making one sound), some consonant clusters where two consonants are next to eachother (fr and pr etc) and the a_e spelling of the ay sound which is called a split diagraph (where the two letters that make one sound are split up and a consonant is in the middle eg ade).

Children will also be learning high frequency words which they learn to read by sight recognition rather than phonic segmenting and blending. But that is a separate list of words and includes the words they will be reading and writing a lot.

The phonics is really important because when they see new words, especially as they reach KS2 and beyond, they need to be able to sound them out using phonics if they can. Remembering what a word looks like won't help so much with longer words and they need the phonics to help work it out. Children who skip the phonic stage as they have excellent sight memories or who need more practice with phonics find spellings both reading and writing increasingly more difficult ime.

Atenco · 17/01/2017 14:03

Can people really not understand the point of testing that children have actually understood phonics rather than just testing that the kids have learnt words by sight, which is what my daughter does an awful lot

Surely learning words by sight is a wonderful thing.

IMHO People/children have different approaches to learning and a good method harnesses all those approaches to get the end result for a class.

CEOD · 17/01/2017 14:22

Exactly. Who CARES if they know phonics or not? If they know how to READ, then surely what does it matter how they learned it. I just can't believe they actually get tested on their phonics (which is a means to an end) skills rather than on their actual reading (the end) skills Confused

mrz · 17/01/2017 17:19

As a parent I care very much that no one noticed my son didn't know phonics until he reached secondary school. I care very much that people told me not to worry because he was a precocious reader and writing would automatically follow ...it didn't!

TeenAndTween · 17/01/2017 17:40

My DD1 was considered quite a 'good reader'.
But as her phonics was/is poor, she struggles with new words.

So even if it is a word she has heard of, she can't read it.

She learned to read before the days of phonics screening.

If you can't do phonics, you can't read words you've not come across before.

mrz · 17/01/2017 17:50

"Crikey! Whatever happened to what was called comprehension in my day?" It's taught alongside accurate reading of the text. Comprehensions impossible if you can't read the words.

mrz · 17/01/2017 17:53

"My dgs who was an excellent reader refused to read 'strom ' in his phonics test" many good readers guessers do exactly that when they meet unfamiliar words which is why we have a phonic screening check to identify those who are at risk.

PassiveAgressiveQueen · 17/01/2017 18:08

Surely learning words by sight is a wonderful thing.

Not when you come across a word you haven't seen before and you have no way of decoding it. I was listening to kids read at our local school before phonics (and before my kids) when the kids came across a word they hadn't seen before they had nothing, they looked at me oddly when i suggested splitting it up, or sounding out the letter sounds.

unlucky83 · 17/01/2017 18:19

mrz sorry but what happened to your son is not due to not having a phonics test...it is due to them not realising he was not as good at reading as they thought he was...and his lack of writing should have rung alarm bells too
You can't be good at reading if you can't read words out of context, that you haven't seen before - that really should have been picked up at primary ...
I will be the first person to say that learning to read by sight reading alone badly lets a lot of children down but not all.
(On balance I think phonics with some common sense is the way to go....for some children rigidly following phonics alone can switch them off reading))

I wasn't taught phonics and have no problems with previously unseen words - actually I was a scientific researcher for a while - you come across lots of 'new' and strange words ....and I never had a problem ...

I learned phonics when I worked with children with special needs ...and discovered that I knew the rules -I just had never been formally taught them...
I had picked it up from recognising patterns in words...
And being good at phonics does not mean that you will have no problems - DD1 couldn't read the word dinghy correctly and we had a great conversation where she refused to believe she was mispronouncing ogre....

mrz · 17/01/2017 18:25

Actually it is ...

mrz · 17/01/2017 18:32

"due to them not realising he was not as good at reading as they thought he was"
He was every bit as good at reading as they thought he was as clearly demonstrated by assessment by two educational psychologists.
"You can't be good at reading if you can't read words out of context"
He could read any word he encountered in or out of context

cantkeepawayforever · 17/01/2017 18:55

Unlucky,

I think that the point is that even if you 'appear' to be learning words by sight, many people who seem to learn this way actually work out the 'phonic code' and can then apply it.

My DS - a very early, predominantly self-taught pre-school reader - was fascinating to watch.

He memorised whole books by rote, and, being a phenomenally early riser, used to spend time reciting them to himself, following the words as he turned over the pages. He then learned to 'read' some words - as in, recognise and name them in other contexts - that he had seen in his familiar books, and this continued until he could read unknown texts fluently.

if asked at that point, I would have said that he earned to read through whole word recognition. However, in reception he joined the whole class phonics teaching - and his teacher found that he had an excellent knowledge of phonics for decoding, including e.g. digraphs and split digraphs.

So what LOOKED like whole word recognition was actually initial whole word recognition followed by working out the phonic code so that he could recognise the graphemes in other contexts and thus read unknown words.' Having seen it in him, i can now see that that is exactly what I do - I too was a scientist: I apply the knowledge of phonics from words that I already know to break down and then build up the new word from these segments.

Teaching phonics directly simply takes out the requirement for the learner to work out the phonics code for themselves - and thus makes it more likely that more learners will succeed. Why 'hide' the mechanism by never directly teaching it, and thus require every learner to work it out for themselves?

unlucky83 · 17/01/2017 18:57

He obviously couldn't have been good at reading if he then had to learn phonics at secondary ... he was good at recognising words he'd seen before -which is really not the same at all. (I guess he has a fantastically good visual memory? ) And that should have been flagged before. (iirc reading tests have some very obscure words - I doubt he had come across all of them before and he mustn't have even come close to being able to read some - not even make a good guess - and that should have been noted...
(Similar to DCs who can read a whole range of words ...but they have no understanding of the meaning of what they have 'read' - and therefore they can't read - that should be picked up on too...)
and you cut my sentence -
....out of context, that you haven't seen before which from what you said
mustn't have been true for your son...

mrz · 17/01/2017 18:59

You obviously know better than the educational psychologists and teachers who actually met and assessed his reading ability...do you use a crystal ball?

mrz · 17/01/2017 19:01

"You can't be good at reading if you can't read words out of context, that you haven't seen before" he could read any word he met in or out of context even those he had never met or heard before ...as in able to read the Financial Times before he started nursery.

unlucky83 · 17/01/2017 19:10

cantkeep that is exactly what I am trying to say - thank you!
The problem with a strict phonics approach is for children like your son (and me!) is what they are lucky enough to be able to do 'instinctively' -without conscious thought - becomes more difficult, complex, more of a chore. And that can ruin reading for them....
That was the reason that learning to read by sight reading was thought to be a good idea at one point ...actually I was told in the mid 90s that both methods 'work' for 70% children - so both fail 30% of children - obviously different children need different approaches...
mrs I picked up on he must be very bright. I think somewhere we are cross purposes - if he could read anything - why did he have to learn phonics at secondary?

cantkeepawayforever · 17/01/2017 19:17

I seem to remember the failure fate for good explicit phonics teaching is 5%, that for teaching 'by sight' is 30%? Certainly there is absolutely no reason not to teach phonics, and i have no problem at all with DS being 'taught something he had worked out for himself'. It benefited his writing hugely, and didn't hold back his reading or enjoyment of reading at all.

mrz · 17/01/2017 19:30

" if he could read anything - why did he have to learn phonics at secondary?" Phonics isn't just for reading ...his spelling was appalling which made putting anything down on paper a huge struggle.
The secondary EP did a more detailed version of the phonics screening check (using only pseudo words) which identified weakness. If the issue had been identified early he would have avoided years of heartache.

Yamadori · 17/01/2017 19:47

What fresh hell is this? DC left school now, but if they'd come home with crap like this for homework it would have gone straight in the bin.

What's wrong with memorising words anyway? Jolly good idea if you ask me and so are chanting your times tables until they are branded onto your brain for ever. They should be using proper actual words instead of this bollocks. Rant over.

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