"Growth mindset" - is school using this the wrong way?

[SansaClegane]

My DS is 7 and in year 3, he has just moved up to a new school (junior school) which is linked to his infant school.
They have introduced the "growth mindset" thing a year or so ago and I'm fine with that; however at the new school I'm not sure they're selling it right. Let me try to explain.
DS is bright and naturally academic and usually needs a bit more of a challenge at school. I asked him how it's going, what they are doing in Maths. He told me what they had been doing that day and that it was all a bit easy. So I asked if he had told the teacher this and maybe got something more challenging to work on. He became very uncomfortable and said no, because "if I find things easy that means I haven't got a growth mindset". He was upset about this as he strives to do things right, and in his opinion finding things easy is the wrong thing to do
So a few days later I asked him again about school, and he explained to me that in order to learn you have to "fall into the learning pit" first (i.e. Not be able to do something) and then "work hard" to get out of it; and if you are able to do something straight away again that's "wrong" and means you're not learning?!
I find it worrying that DS now thinks there's something wrong with him or being able to grasp new concepts quickly. Surely the school can't mean to convey that this is so, but it seems that is what they tell the children?! I've chatted to another parent, whose daughter is also very bright, and she has reported a similar story from her DD.
I guess my question is, do I seek to speak with the teacher now (maybe just to clarify what's going on and how they word this at school), or am I making too big a deal and wait until parents' evening (November)?
On a side note, the work they do at school does seem to be really easy for year 3 and there seems to be no differentiation. DS has had two maths homeworks so far and they both were variations of "find the biggest number" - one was just a line of 5 numbers which had to be sorted from smallest to biggest! They are also learning to "count in 4s and 8s" when my DS is very confident with his times tables up to 12x.

I can't see its quite so necessary in the classroom which hopefully shouldn't always be intense and challenging and falling into pits hmm why not? why shouldn't every day in a class room be challenging for childen? It should be, and they should expect it. Children in other countries move at a much faster than our children, particularly countries where they basically cover just as much ground in half or less of the school years.

Growth mindset ideas can be very very useful for high achievers who can sometimes tend towards always wanting to achieve perfection and can develop to avoid things that they don't know they can succeed at. Some of the most anxious people I know are perfectionists. Growth mindset does not encourage perfectionism, it encourages risk taking. BUT this can't be done with very able students if there isn't work available that's either very challenging or open ended.
If I were you OP I'd approach this within the framework of growth mindset - that your ds can't learn about trying hard and striving if his work is too easy.

I just hate the metaphor 'falling into a pit' it sounds as though a trap put there deliberately and that it is a dangerous place. It's not a phrase I would ever use with a child about a task they could not yet manage.

I need to read whole thread but this is a great piece about growth mindset with children:

leftbraincraftbrain.com/2016/09/12/5-surefire-ways-to-raise-a-kid-who-never-gives-up/

Imo though it's a bit of an oxymoron in our current test and outcome driven school system.

It sounds to me like there is a miscommunication between school/teacher and your DS. I'd speak to the teacher about it now, because either the school has misunderstood growth mindset, or she has been bad at explaining it to kids.

I think the issue is that growth mindset is based on the idea of praising the effort not the result, which is the opposite of the English education system of focus on the results, i.e. SATS and league tables. I think this is hard for schools to get the right balance.

And it's also important to remember that mindset isn't everything, and that there are other factors at play. This is a good blog on the basics of mindset, which is very balanced and honest. It's not enough to say 'we follow growth mindset'. The school has to differentiate between kids who are less or more able, and set the appropriate tasks for each of them. I am guessing that's a lot more work for the teacher though.

Growth mindset, when applied properly, is amazing.

I have 5 years olds, instead of giving up, saying I can't do it 'yet'.

I have a list of rules, written by the children, that include things such as 'we will make mistakes'.

It is all about resilience and not giving up. And yes, there is a lot of evidence out there. It is about teaching children not to take the easy route, not to give up. That if we are in the 'wobble zone' that is when we are learning.

Interestingly, it seems like the OP LO's are probably coasting a bit and that growth mindset will make a huge difference to their education (and earning power).

Growth mindset (contrary to what the people who appear to be against it on this thread say), isn't about saying you can do anything and succeed at anything. Because plainly, not everyone will become prime minister etc.
What it does do, is challenge the children to come out of their comfort zone and challenge themselves. When you push children to try harder and believe harder, they will achieve way more than when you don't.

There is nothing good about keeping children in the practice zone and they need to know how to take themselves out of it. Because guess what, in a few years there wont be teachers there to hold the children's hands through life. The children will become adults and will need that self-drive.

Growth mindset is real, it is amazing, it makes a HUGE difference in the classroom and I really hope it is here to stay.

AllTheShoes

That isn't a problem with growth mindset, that's a problem with the level of challenge.

So is it that the school are doing a Singapore/Shanghai model of whole class maths teaching? Mastery maths or similar. If so they will look at challenge through greater depth rather than pushing forward. So maybe using and applying 4s and 8s in a variety of contexts rather than learning 12s.

frozenpink

It depends on how it is put to the children.

If you tell them that being in the pit is a good thing, and reward them for being in the pit in a very excited way, then they will see it as a good thing.

Another example is red pen. Some people won't mark in red pen because it has negative connections. But if you tell the children that red means they have learned something and it is a good thing, they will open their books hoping to see red pen.

It is all about marketing :)

TeacherBob I agree in principle, but the way it has worked (or not worked so well) at my kids' school seems to be very similar to the issue at the OP's school. So I was wondering if there might be some reason why a school that focuses on a growth mindset might also find it hard (or even be ideologically opposed) to provide sufficient challenge for the top of ability range.

Of course, correlation is not causation and it's only two examples etc. But that's what prompted my comment.

AllTheShoes
Sorry I had a long typed out response but my computer crashed so now you get the edited version.

I don't think they are connected at all.

Growth mindset is more about being an ethos, that no matter what you do you can try your best, and that you won't sit back and take it easy, that you will always challenge yourself. Be the best you can be.

Setting challenging work is a different matter. It is about setting work that is appropriate for each child.

You can have a class that has a growth mindset but the work isn't challenging enough so it will fail.
Or you can have a class with great challenge learning for the children but the children don't have a growth mindset and so won't attempt the harder work.
So I guess they are connected in that respect, but I think its a fairly loose connection.

Also, some children will have a growth mindset and go for the work they find harder, but basically growth mindset is just giving that frame of mind a label. A LOT of high achieving children actually coast and they benefit greatly from a growth mindset ethos, although I also believe they are the children who will struggle to aquire the skills. When they get them though, wow!
It is like throwing the shackles off and realising they can do so much more.

Forgetting about growth mindset, wouldn't it just be great if every child believed they can achieve to the best of their ability? If they believed that they can try harder than they thought? That they really know that taking easy work to look clever will actually hold them back.
That is all growth mindset is. It doesn't replace the work that is being set, it is an ethos of belief that they can challenge themselves.

I have a class of 5 year olds.
Instead of saying I cant do it, they say 'I cant do it yet'.
5 year olds that will put their hand up and say 'I am in the wobble zone' and the fact that they are out of their comfort zone is celebrated by their peers.
5 year olds that make up their own class rules, to include 'we will make mistakes and we will learn from them' (and yes, I am wow'ing that, that is amazing).
5 year olds that will explain to you that if they have butterflies in their belly, they are learning.
5 year olds that will not only take on the challenge I set them, but then extend their own learning, challenging themselves and then actively sharing their learning with their peers.
5 year olds that ask me if they can move their peers up the diamond (reward system) because they noticed their peers trying something new that was tricky.

That sounds like a class I want my child to grow in. I have 30 children in my class. I have had them for 3 weeks. And they can already do all that.
Imagine, with that ethos to push themselves, what they can do in 1,2,5, 10 years?

They may only be my babies for one year but if I can leave them with one thing in that one year that will change their life, it will be to allow them to grow with a growth mindset.

I can not, and will not, allow them to take the easy way out, the easy work, to sit back and not achieve their potential. And you know what, with a growth mindset, they wont allow themselves to do it either.

(and that's the short version!)

Oh and to answer your question, because I am not sure I did.

No, I don't think they are ideologically opposed.

The whole ethos of a growth mindset insists that work and learning opportunities provided need to provide challenge for every level of work.

If you don't provide challenging work you are not providing children with the opportunity to practice a growth mindset.

(Disclaimer: Often children, and more often parents, misunderstand challenge and I am in no way commenting on the level of challenge that is set. Two very popular examples.
Reading -
Parent "My child has a book that is too easy, they can easily read it"
Me "but he doesn't understand it, reading is more than decoding" and

Maths
Parent "my child can count up to 100"
Me "but they don't understand that 62 is 6 tens and 2 1's"

Only the teacher of the class can decide what is best for each child, and I certainly cant comment on others'.

I do believe as educators though, that we have a duty to educate the parents as to 'modern ways' as school is so different from when parents were at school and so many parents assume that modern = bad.

I will read this tomorrow if possible.

My child has been in tears over the group in a video labelled as "non growth mindset"!

Strewth!

If a child finds something easy straight away, the appropriate growth mindset response is "I'm sorry I wasted your time with that. Let's find you something harder so that you can learn."

And yes hes a very academically able child.

Just give him more challenging work and stop giving him a complex.

And I just guess it is some snake oil salesman fleecing school budgets? My old Mum says "If you knew everything and the work was all easy straightaway there would be no point going to school."

If we put that on a poster can she claim royalties?!

This term gets used a lot at the massive corporation I work for. For me it has a very corporate association. To me, it says "let's squeeze every last drop of effort from you"...

Now am I am not suggesting we strap children to each other and scream at them, but please, take 6 minutes out of your life and watch this video
It will be worth it

vimeo.com/15772500

My class is run as a growth mindset classroom.

The expense on the budget is zero.

Good to hear that TeacherBob.

cornflakegirl and Aethelflead you have completely missed the point in 'growth mindset'.

There wont always be someone there to give your child something more challenging. They will grow up and leave school. It is about breeding resilience, about challenging themselves.

If you need someone to give you challenging work, you don't have a growth mindset and ultimately the chances are you wont fulfil your potential

Bob - what I posted was a paraphrased quote from Carol Dweck, so no, I haven't missed the point.

I'm quite a fan of Growth Mindset. But TeacherBobs vom-inducing posts above make me scrunch my nose in distaste.

Anyway, I digress...

As a parent the key point I take from the Growth Mindset is learning resilience.

Learning resilience is good.

But TeacherBob I have never been given the point of growth mindset as taught in my childs school . My child is in the class and I am getting the fallout.

If my child is too polite to ask for harder maths then my parenting style is clearly a big problem with this system. He should probably strop and riot a bit! Or more likely I'll sign him up for Kip McGrath..

Well I kind of guess that is why it looks like you missed the point, you made it look like you didn't understand what you paraphrased (and tbh I am not sure you do), but nm, its my bedtime, nn :)

FATEdestiny I don't see what is wrong with the posts?
I am discussing using a combination of experience and knowledge.

Athelflead, I am not so sure there is anything wrong with your parenting style (well there might be, but who knows, I am in no position to say)...

...But there is clearly something wrong somewhere along the line and it could be the class?
In my class, my children are actively encouraged to discuss when work is too easy.
Today for instance, I introduced new learning/consolidation/treading water.
I told my children that new learning is good, consolidation is essential and treading water (doing something that they don't need to think about), is something that we never want to do in our class. I asked them to promise that if they ever think they are treading water they will tell me, and when they have their levelled challenges, they never choose one that they tread water with.

Growth mindset isn't something you can just say and expect great results, you have to live and breathe it so much that not only do the children believe it but they are convinced of it. They should have the freedom to say when things are too hard or easy and this should be celebrated, as we can then learn from it (look at the skills being taught and decide together which bits are hard/easy and if it really is too hard/easy)