I might discuss DS moving up a year with teacher...

[toffeenose]

DS has just gone into Y2 at a very small school. Last year Y1 and Y2 were taught together and DS made lots of friends with children in the year above - his birthday is the very beginning of September and many of them are just weeks older. There are only 8 other pupils in Y2 and many of them are summer born so seem much younger than him. He doesn't really have any friends in his class and has come home very sad, which is not like him at all. The break times are staggered so he doesn't even get to play with his friends till the end of the day.

The school is independent and follows the national curriculum but it is guided by the belief that in the early years, children will come to reading and writing in line with their development, so although they are taught to read, children who are not keen will focus on stories and words but not be pushed to progress with phonics until they are ready. DS is not reading or writing.

I want to talk to his teacher about the possibility of moving him up to Y3 to be with his friends. There are 3 children in the year above who are not yet reading or writing so that is not in itself an impediment to him moving.

Would I be completely mad to put this on the table as an option? The only reason really is that socially in his class he is pretty much on his own as the three children who he was friends with in reception have left. I would be willing to pay for a 1:1 to work with him in class.

I would just be interested to hear people's views.

We read together all the time - we are on HP book 6 and DS understands and discuss the plot with me!

Are you certain he doesn't read? Does he have some grasp of phonics?

Tbh, if I had a child in Y2 with a great interest in literature and stories who wasn't reading at all, I'd consider the possibility that the reason was not that he is developmentally unready, but that reading is genuinely hard for him. His reluctance may be hiding a disability like dyslexia, or some other problem (stupid question probably but have you had his sight tested?)

Obviously those parents based in France don't know what they e talking about

mrz it varies, but reading is taught formally in Y2. I live in France, my kids were born and educated here, and my DH has worked part-time at a French primary school for the last 9 years. So let's say I have some experience of this ;)

In a state school he would certainly be involved in interventions for his reading and writing most likely daily in a small group. There would also probably have been SENCO involvement if he was found to understand the concepts but had difficulty in the application. Has his school not mentioned the possibility of Dyslexia or sight problems, it seems odd that they are not concerned when you mention the vast majority of his year are free reading despite being younger than him.

I am shocked that your DS is 7 and not reading and writing, he would not be able to access the NC at all. If he went to a state primary he would probably have an awful lot of intervention and possibly be withdrawn for 1-2-1 work to help him make progress. In state primary pupils are assessed in yr1 and have SAT's at the end of yr2.
OP have you thought that if he is reluctant he may always be reluctant and perhaps needs a push and more formal style of learning? If he cannot read or write in Yr2 that is quite unusual and would be unusual in a state primary school. How will he make the leap to the volume of work they produce in yr6 before moving onto secondary? I would be very worried that my DS would be way behind the expected levels for yr6 and secondary, he may not be able to access the curriculum at secondary if he is working at a much lower level than his peers.
Are you paying for this school? Have you looked at local primary schools? I have 2 DC one of whom has SN and support in mainstream primary so I understand how those schools work with extra support, but am shocked that there are schools out there that have children in yr2/3 who can't read and write. Surely they can't be accessing the NC

So in your experience children are taught phonics in l'Ecole Maternelle but formal teaching of reading is later? .

Time to make him start learning to read, then, if he has the comprehension and interest. Don't understand why you aren't concerned about this!!

As others have said, though, if he is as able as you imply, are you sure he can't actually read? Maybe he can but is just being lazy and pretending he can't?

He will surely have the same problem in Y6 when his friends move on and he has to repeat the year. In fact, won't this be more difficult as the other children have had longer to make friendship groups and he will be and "oddity” having already completed Y6 once. Unless you do change schools of course.

I'm not sure it will be any benefit to him really. It's only been a few days (if in England) so things may change anyway.

I didn't actively teach mine to read but they could read before they started school just by being exposed to lots of books and seeing me read and the curiosity took over. I never formally taught phonics if they asked what a letter was I told them the sound the rest they figured out themselves. If you read to your son isn't he curious how reading works? I don't think you need to make him learning to read for himself a chore, I found they picked it up by osmosis and a desire to access things in books or online that interested them. Could you increase how much reading you do with him? Let his see and share your love of books and the reading will come.

I didn't actively teach mine to read either. They also had lots of exposure to books and were read to several times a day. But they are all different - no 'one size fits all'.

My eldest could read a few words before reception, my middle one was 6 and my youngest 2.

Interestingly the one who hit 6 unable to read even a few words has achieved the most academically (including A star in English lit / A in eng Lang GCSE and A at A level English.

What is it about this school that appeals to you? Because I wouldn't want my children to be in any school with such a small year group unless there was a special reason. I think a larger year group makes it much easier to find friends.

The OP has said that she already does a lot of reading with him and he's 7. If he was going to pick up phonics on his own he'd almost certainly have done it by now. Especially since he's probably had some sort of phonics teaching going on around him in the two years he's been at school.

The problem is that while the OP is correct that in other countries children start at 6, the reading instruction is fairly full on. The teaching doesn't usually consist of 20 mins a day of the sort of phonics games that often happen here and they will be expected to be reading. It's not quite the same as being in a system where the belief is they'll get it when they are ready. Which is probably why the school have a large number of children who still can't read and write in year 3.

Not reading in year 2 would surely be a huge issue in a state school. Not least he wouldn't access sats.

Have you considered moving him to a state school where he might get more support and be able to catch up? Also a wider friendship Base?

I'm in France. My dd was moved up a year when she was 5 as she could already read fluently and was assessed by an educational psychologist re. IQ and (more importantly imo) maturity.
She's 14 now and has never looked back. However, the system is quite different to the UK -there are 3 or 4 in her class who are a year ahead and 2 who are a year behind.

Mistigri -my other 2 DC both have December birthdays so learnt to read before turning 6. They were learning words and phonics throughout "maternelle" too.

Dd went to preschool in Ireland and was doing phonics. Her preschool was from 2.5-4.5/5. Whilst some parents of Spring/summer born DC delay starting the equivalent of reception by a year, technically school starting age is same as UK.

I'm now in the US and where we live most DC go to preschool, then pre-K programs. Very few kids will have had no to exposure to phonics prior to kindergarten.

Mistigri -my other 2 DC both have December birthdays so learnt to read before turning 6. They were learning words and phonics throughout "maternelle" too.

Yes, they definitely do some phonics in maternelle now (though varies between schools), my point was about formal expectations of reading - they start later and literally no one in France would be in the least surprised that a child going into Y2 was not yet reading. Many children who read earlier are put up a year, like your DD and both my children.

My point, in relation to the OP, was that while not reading at 6-7 can be normal for children who have not yet been taught (as in French and German schools), these children tend to learn very quickly once exposed to formal reading tuition, and if they don't, it's often because there is an underlying issue.

So in your experience children are taught phonics in l'Ecole Maternelle but formal teaching of reading is later? hmm.

Some maternelles use formal phonics teaching in grande section (Y1). It's very hit and miss depending on teachers and schools (bearing in mind that there are still schools here using dreadful whole word reading methods!). It may depend where you live - central Paris is probably different - but my children were the only readers in their Y2 entry, and I've spent enough time with French middle class parents to know that if little Pierre can read in grande section (Y1) he will be declared "gifted".

Basically, not reading at 6/7 is normal if you've not been taught to do it. But if you have literate parents and have been exposed to two or more years of phonics teaching and still haven't picked it up, then there is a problem!

At what stage are the children formally taught to read at this school OP? Or are they left to just learn themselves by exposure? I would avoid moving him up if yr2 is the year they are taught to read as he would then miss out completely. I'd also be a bit concerned though if they're just left to pick up these skills (both reading and writing) by themselves. Is numeracy taught formally or is that left up to children to pick up too? You're right that schools in Europe/US do start teaching children these skills later but there is an intention in these countries to teach children to read which seems to be lacking in your DS's school.

The Dutch system is similar to how Misti describes the French system. Formal learning to read starts in the equivalent of year 2, before that they have letter of the week etc. Many kids can then put those letters together to read a few basic words at the end of year 1, but many can't. Teaching then moves very quickly in year 2 and a child unable to read at the end of year 2 would probably repeat the year.

"I've spent enough time with French middle class parents to know that if little Pierre can read in grande section (Y1) he will be declared "gifted"."

Good grief my eldest was reading before nursery without any teaching what would they think of him ...

My oldest brother was 10 before he learned to read. Not a forward thinking school, just a poor one who took a long time to investigate why. He did have behavioural problems and they had just labelled him 'simple'. This was the seventies. He finally caught a good teacher who called in an educational psychologist. Turned out he was a bored genius. Teacher then began to look at ways to get him interested. A week later he was reading fluently. So I do side with the view that when a child is ready and there are no learning difficulties causing problems, a child will learn when ready/interested. Other evidence is around to suggest you don't need to be a bored genius. I'm not a genius but was reading before I started school - I had powder siblings and took an interest in their homework. Children can learn at their own pace. In comparison it would have seemed I was the genius. In reality it was my brother. i am very average.

Don't sweat the reading. Maybe look to see if you could encourage an interest in it but sounds like the school has success with their approach. And as said - my brother certainly shut his critics up!

In Europe, for example, its:
Five years old: England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Malta, the Netherlands
Six years old: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark (6-7), France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Spain, Sweden (6-7)
Seven years old: Estonia, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania.

But the countries which start later (a) have very good preschool systems, so children start school from a good basis and (b) are mostly teaching phonetic languages.

It is far easier to learn to read a phonetic language than a non-phonetic language such as English. Children in most of the countries you named learn to read fluently within their first year at school and need to be able to read fluently to access the curriculum from year 3 onwards.

I would agree that children could start learning to read English in y1 rather than R and then progress faster than 4 years old do, catching up quite quickly. But you're talking about putting a child who can't read in y3. That seems bizarre to me.

We're digressing a bit here, arguing about when French children learn to read. OP, my concerns about what you're saying are these:
a. The year group sounds tiny and socially not ideal for any child. Small schools are not always better!
b. The school "it is guided by the belief that in the early years, children will come to reading and writing in line with their development". What if they just don't? What if it's not developmental, but there is actually a problem? At what point does the school intervene? My cousin, now 50, went to a school like that in the 70s in London. He came out of primary unable to read and write, went off the rails in secondary, has had alcohol/drug issues etc. Now in later life he has been diagnosed dyslexic, got help, has started to turn his life around. I can't directly attribute all his troubles to the primary school. But I do think if they had taken some action about his not being able/willing to read or write instead of waiting for him to choose to do so, they might have uncovered the problem and got him help much earlier, and some aspects of his life might have turned out differently. Your child isn't happy because he hasn't got enough children in his year group to find like-minded friends. He also isn't making any academic progress. And you're paying for this! I would move him. If he arrives at a state school in Year 2 and unable to read they will put measures in place very swiftly to help him catch up.

It is far easier to learn to read a phonetic language than a non-phonetic language such as English. Children in most of the countries you named learn to read fluently within their first year at school and need to be able to read fluently to access the curriculum from year 3 onwards.
The most sensible thing I've read on here. To learn to read and spell English is difficult.

English is complex but it Is a phonetic language