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calling Bink pinotmum mrsMaple Tinygang glassofwine earlybird frogs ellbell hallgerda mimsie singergirl and sphil - help with my day dream believer please

60 replies

indignatio · 01/02/2007 14:29

I have spent a most enjoyable time on MN today reading about dreamers and laughing out loud.
I have a ds who is now a 4.5 yo in reception and has got over his whirling dervish phase (many thanks for the advice - what worked was a high carb snack and smoothie after school - less playdates and taking him out of school 2 afternoons a week)
However the dreaminess continues. After my initial concern over the teacher's attitude, we have got to know each other (I help 2 mornings a week in class). She has moved positions from being exasperated to accepting (well that's just xxx) and now to concerned.
The teacher informed me on Tuesday that she was trying to find out what ds knew and what he had problems with. She mentioned testing his sequencing ability. She said that we would have a meeting at the end of her assessment.
I would like to be forwarned as to possible suggestions (dx too stong a word) that she might come up with. I have today been looking at:
1.dyspraxia
2.pdd - including autism and aspergers - I did JimJams test and he came out with 44 - so no real worries there (I do appreciate the limiations of such an online test)
3.hearing problems
4.sight problems

Personally I consider him to be a geek in training (doesn't help that he comes from a long line of geeks on both sides of the family).

He is smart, clever, a fidgit, a loner (not really made any real friends yet), unmotivated by tasks such as dressing (consequently slow and poor at them), a visual learner, subtle thinker (thanks bink for that one) and a boy who is more interested in where his mind takes him (wildly off tangent) than day to day stuff

I have found out from my sil that her eldest is still the same at 13

I will try the black towel as suggested - also something to pull him back to the real world (not sure letter in pocket would work just yet) - but any other suggestions for both me and the teacher would be most appreciated

Many thanks

OP posts:
indignatio · 05/02/2007 14:38

Thanks again Bink and singersgirl - it is so lovely not to be alone in this.

I have just had a great chat with a friend who is an Ed Psych. She explained that some children take in everything around them and don't filter out the stuff that is not relevant. Therefore they do not concentrate on the stuff that is relevant and important. As examples of kids who take in everything going on, she said that some kids can repeat a book back to you verbatim after you have read it to them once (Ds did this before learning to read) and repeat the full dialogue from adverts (ds does this too).
Her suggestions included :-

1.Asking the child to repeat the important instruction back to you and continue muttering this (such as put shoes on) until the task is done
2.tick charts which show what has to be done eg get up, have breakfast, get dressed, brush teeth etc and the child gets to tick the task once completed and can refer back to the chart if wandering off track
3.A noise to remind child to be in the here and now - variation on the bell ringing occassionally whilst people meditate to stop their minds wandering off. My version of this - loud clap - does seem rather sargeant major like ?!
4.Have discussions as to what should be the next important thing to do and why. eg Is it thinking time or putting shoes on time - which will be the most useful for walking to school ?

BUT the MOST important thing to remember is to encourage rather than stamp on the child as being told that they are so slow will damage self esteem and make the child think that they cannot possibily do the task as they will never be able to do it quick enough to please mummy/daddy/teacher.

She concluded by describing some kids as square pegs in round holes at school as they are expected to conform, but what makes them special is that they can think outside the box and so need time to do this.

Hope this makes sense, I have tried to get it down quickly so that I did not forget any of the salient points

OP posts:
indignatio · 07/02/2007 13:10

Help again please
ds's teacher seems more and more convinced that ds is dyspraxic. I really don't - nor does dh. She is suggesting that I take ds to the GP "to start the ball rolling"

OP posts:
Hallgerda · 07/02/2007 14:12

Try to get the SENCO onside - it sounds as if she is likely to agree with you and your dh, and the class teacher is rather interfering on her turf. In any event, the teacher can't make you do anything you don't want to.

indignatio · 08/02/2007 05:15

Thanks Hallgerda. I have asked for a formal meeting with dh and teacher once she has finished the assessment and spoken to the SENCO. Perhaps I should ask for Senco to be present at the meeting if that is possible.

I am still not sleeping as this keeps going round and round in my head - hence posting at this time

OP posts:
Hallgerda · 08/02/2007 07:42

Go and see the SENCO as soon as possible. The fact you are not sleeping over the matter is sufficient justification. I wouldn't wait for the meeting (though I agree it would be a good idea for her to be there).

But, as I said before, the school can't force you to go to the GP over the matter.

singersgirl · 08/02/2007 10:53

When is the meeting set up? I'm really sorry it's causing you so much anxiety, but do sympathise. I've had to talk to DS2's teacher (Y2) about motivation and daydreaming this week....

We didn't go to the GP about DS1, but his Y1 teacher suggested we had an occupational therapy assessment about this time of the school year. We were living abroad at the time, so the system was a bit different. DH didn't think DS1 needed it, but I was quite keen to see if there were any major physical problems. The school recommended a clinic and we paid for the assessment ourselves.

In our case, the outcome was positive; the OT found him low-end of normal for fine motor, OK for gross motor, fine for motor planning (made him do a jigsaw on a wobbly board) and said he wasn't ADHD (though I guess it wasn't an ADHD assessment). They said there wasn't anything they would do in a clinic with him that we couldn't do at home as far as fine motor practice went.

But none of that really dealt with the distractibility.

Let us know how you get on.

Bink · 08/02/2007 11:42

I'm sorry - it sounds like you're being steam-rollered, which isn't fair and is not the teacher's job.

Can I ask, is it that you think the problems are being wrongly put down to a particular "thing", or is it that you would rather not put your son through tests (at all) at this time?

indignatio · 08/02/2007 12:51

Thanks all - I really feel like I have a support group with you all - which is great

Hallgerda - I shall ask for a date for the meeting to be sorted out asap - so at least I know what i am working towards. To be polite I shall ask the teacher re approaching the senco and whether the seco will be at the meeting. I certainly won't being going to the GP just yet.

Singersgirl - did ds2's teacher come up with any suggestions ?

Bink - interesting question. I do not think that ds is dyspraxic - there is a great quote in one of the articles I have read

"It is hoped that the dx of dyspraxia does not suffer the same fate as dyslexia so that every child who may be a little forgetful, disorganised and clumsy is dxed as dyspraxic " Portwood

Whilst ds is a little forgetful, he is neither of the other two characteristics.

Through all my recent reading, one dyspraxic trait stood out "the child reacts to all stimuli without discrimination" - This does describe ds.

I cannot see what benefit a dx of dyspraxia would be to ds. It is not going to result in a statement for the teacher to have extra classroom help beacuse of him. The only potential upside would be that in some exams he may be allowed extra time. (he is only 4 ffs)

I do object to him being labelled - my own prejudices perhaps ?

I understand from a friend that if I went to the GP and the GP was happy to refer ds on, he would be seen (in due course) by the community paed, who (in her view) might find a mild form of something but be of no practical help. My friend (bless her)was quite happy to state categorically that there was no way ds was on the autistic spectrum. Interestingly neither she nor the ed psych categorically said that they didn't think ds could be dyspraxic. Am I wearing rose tinted spectacles when it comes to my own child ? (rhetorical)

The only place practical help can come from (unless I am missing something) is through an assessment by an Ed Psych. If the school can arrange this in a reasonable time frame then I would be more than happy to go along with it (so i am not anti tests). If the school can't, then I would ask another friend to do this for ds.

Again, sorry for the ramble, this is the best place for me to get down my thoughts / feedback from others as they are occuring.

I am still not sure i have moved from the position of "lets try to celebrate the differences" rather than turning my square peg into a round one so that he fits the mould.

OP posts:
singersgirl · 08/02/2007 12:58

The problem with DS2 (an end-of-August 5 year old in Y1) is that he's not completing work and is becoming discouraged. The teacher says he often seems a bit removed and distracted. He tells me 'it's boring'. Like many bright boys, he finds writing laborious and can't see the point.

We're going to give him a personal target sticker-chart thingy of completing work on time, and if he does it every day I'll get him something (like a chocolate bar or trading cards) at the end of the week.

Will let you know if this works!

indignatio · 08/02/2007 13:17

Thanks Singersgirl. I am really pushing the writing practise at the mo as I can foresee the same problems with ds in years to come over finishing work quickly (or not as the case is more likely to be).

Having said that I am impressed with how much his writing (and therefore fine motor skills) has improved since he has been at school.

I am also teaching him to use the computer keyboard so that if he gets to the stage where it is frustrating to write because the mind is moving quicker than the pencil, he could at least type out the sentence (or whatever) and then copy it out.

I might try a reward based time limit for his homework. If I said you have 30 minutes (say) to write out your letters, but if you finish before that time, you can play games on the computer for the rest of the 30 minutes - am I creating problems for the teacher in school as she can't do a similar thing ? Am I worrying unecessarily ?

OP posts:
Hallgerda · 08/02/2007 14:29

Do schools ever worry about causing problems for parents? Seriously, you will probably find the school uses similar incentives, e.g. "golden time" for those who finish their work. Whether such incentives really work for your child may be another matter. I'm sure mine would have produced very scrappy letters indeed.

I can see that going behind the teacher's back might be a bit of a sensitive issue, but there's really nothing wrong with you going to see the SENCO without going through the class teacher and you shouldn't feel at all inhibited about doing so.

Hallgerda · 08/02/2007 15:11

Another thought - from my own experience and may not be relevant to your situation - but is the teacher making it clear enough to your son that he's meant to be doing the work to a higher standard and faster? Teachers can be so careful to be encouraging at all times that the children think they're doing fine while the parents are worried sick.

sphil · 14/02/2007 22:40

I can't believe I missed this thread - have just read the whole thing going 'yes yes yes' all the way through. And it had my name on it too! So am making a blatantly selfish attempt to revive it..

Indignatio, so much of what you say applies to my DS1 too. And I have very similar feelings to you about the pros and cons of testing. We've decided to hold fire with DS atm - and I'm pleased to read that Bink thinks that the 'wait and see' approach might be a good one. He starts a new school in April - m/s, but with a very good record with SEN (language unit on site) - it'll be interesting to see what they make of him (he's on both the SEN and G&T registers at his current school).

Have you had the meeting with the SENCO yet?

singersgirl · 14/02/2007 23:31

Actually, I was going to revive the thread too to say I had to see both boys' teachers last week. DS1 (8 and in Y4) has apparently taken the class-clowning to an unacceptable level, and (this seemed to cause the teacher the most distress) had got up from his seat in the middle of the lesson to look out of the window. I asked him why and he said "I wanted to look at the snow". I mean, I can see his point....

How's it going, Indignatio?

indignatio · 15/02/2007 09:44

Thank you all so much

No meeting as yet. I assume that it will be after half term (which starts tomorrow). I am fine about this and am sleeping again.

Since last posting, I have spoken to my GP paed friend and my ed pych friend. Both of whom were very helpful.

However, the most helpful person to put matters into perspective was my Sil. In her view, ds has traits that one son has and traits that the other son has. Younger dnephew has finally been dxed as dyslexic and the more she reads about dyspraxia, the more she thinks this might apply (in part) to eldest dnephew. Her view was (and I paraphrase) that I was not looking at this in the right way, ds has traits which are not always condusive to an easy passage through life and so I should look at those traits and work out how best to give him the life skills to be able to deal with them.

I have therefore prepared a table dealing with:-
Socialisation /Isolation
Wandering attention during practical tasks
Wandering attention during school work
Speech & misc issues

In each I have asked for ds's view, put down my perception, and left a space for the school's perception. I have listed aims (eg to focus on the task in hand) and strategies for home and school to use to achieve this aim (eg: hand on shoulder to bring ds back into the here and now when his attention is wandering off).

Talking to the Ed pych, she was strongly of the view that this was a good approach and that it would be most benefical for an ed pych doing an assessment at a later stage to have details of what had already been tried.

It seems from the people I have spoken to, that an assessment should not be done too early (he is only 4.5) as the brain pathways continue to develop until they are 7 or so.

Good friends have read the report I have prepared and in 9/10 instances have reported similar behaviour in their 4.5yolds. However I do trust the teacher that there is something different about ds (more extreme ?) and think that my job (as mother) is to try to teach him the life skills he needs.

Again, can I thank you all for being such a support.

Any strategies you care to suggest would be very warmly received.

OP posts:
indignatio · 15/02/2007 09:57

Another thing, from all my reading I think he has far more ADD than dyspraxic traits. The ADD websites have also been much better at suggesting strategies.

OP posts:
indignatio · 15/02/2007 14:47

Over here Pinotmum

OP posts:
sphil · 15/02/2007 18:46

That's a really good idea Indignatio - my DS definitely has problems in all those areas listed although socially is only mildly affected atm. He is quite happy to play on his own if he doesn't enjoy the game his friends are playing - he says he 'fights invisible monsters with my Disney friends'(his imaginary companions). I think I should see this as a strength - he really doesn't care that much what other people think of him! The 'tuning out' can be a problem though - we've had some discussions about day-dreaming and when it's appropriate to do so.

What speech issues does your DS have? Mine has a wide vocab and is always described as articulate by adults but he can become very muddled when trying to explain an idea. He also hops and paces about a lot while he's talking, which doesn't help. Today he got very cross because he asked me
'When are the new days?' and I hadn't a clue what he meant. It turned out (after much huffing and puffing and shouting at me) that he meant 'When did the olden days stop and the 'new days' begin?' Then he wanted me to relate it all to the various series of Doctor Who - the 'olden days' being when I used to watch Patrick Troughton as a child,
'you know mummy, before colour TV was invented'(!)

indignatio · 16/02/2007 09:49

Thanks Spil, your message made me smile. The huge vocab, complicated sentences, muddled in the middle (giving up sometimes)and the hopping about rang so many bells !!

Other speech issues are;
a bossy manner
Doesn't look at the person to whom he is speaking
keeps repeating the same comment until he has acknowledgement from the listener
Doesn't always see/hear (be open to) the acknowledgement of the listener
Tendency to give lazy answers. ie "I don't know", when he does know (which is clear after he has been pushed on the matter)

On the socialisation front, he can be happy to play alone at school as (in his words) he can do waht he wants.

OP posts:
Hallgerda · 16/02/2007 14:55

I'm having problems over DS3 again, unfortunately. The teacher thinks he has language processing difficulties (oh well, at least they now accept he can do Maths...). What's getting to me is that the school's last attempt at intervention took my son from slightly odd child doing reasonably well to completely giving up, and I'm not looking forward to digging him out of another hole.

indignatio · 16/02/2007 15:20

Oh Hallgerda, I'm so sorry to read your post. you were so upbeat a couple of weeks ago. Do you agree with the teacher's view ? What's your gut instinct ?

OP posts:
Hallgerda · 16/02/2007 20:43

Thanks, indignatio. I was initially very upset, but have since had a few conversations, and a bit of writing practice, with DS3. I think the teacher's mistaking a developmental stage for a long-term problem. DS3 has made quite a bit of progress in terms of faster writing but the story organization skills haven't quite caught up. I encouraged him to write a plan before he started and suddenly the structure and content looked a whole lot better. It improved even more after I pointed out when he should and shouldn't use "and". I think he's got similar issues with spoken language - he just needs to plan what he's going to say before he puts his hand up. He's growing out of the behaviour you describe - he does look at people, does take an interest in what they say to him and does far less repetition, but comes over a little stilted and bossy and sometimes starts talking before he's quite decided where his sentence is going.

The teacher was having another go on social skills - beats me why the school has to make a big deal of one child on his own minding his own business in the playground instead of dealing with the one who goes around randomly attacking other children . DS3 does have friends - he invites them round and they play nicely - so I'm not concerned.

sphil · 25/02/2007 08:27

Sorry - just wanted to call ameeting of the day dreamers club and thought this was the quickest way to do it! Apologies too if you've read this elsewhere.

A week ago DS1 started telling me he had 'fuzzy lines' in his vision. He says he's always had them but over the last week he described them a number of times, in exactly the same way each time. I took him to the optician today and she could find absolutely nothing wrong. She took me aside at the end and implied strongly that she thought he was making it up - she was v nice about it and said it's quite common.

Then two days ago he started a strange facial movement - sort of dropping his chin to his chest by opening his mouth and rubbing his chin against his chest. He's obviously not aware he's doing it as he looked very puzzled when I questioned him. This has got more and more frequent - today he's doing it once very 20 secs or so. I checked last night but he didn't do it in his sleep.

We're moving in a few weeks and I wondered if both these things could be stress related. He's also been quite stroppy at home (v unusual), reluctant to go to school and his teacher has said he's very switched off in class. He's always had some odd body movements at times - a sort of twitchy dancing - but this has got much worse recently. He's fidgeting all the time - couldn't sit still at all in the opticians room.

Have any of you experienced anything similar with your children? Am really quite worried - hence multiple threads

Pickledcat · 25/02/2007 09:35

In a nosy moment I opened this thread, hope I'm not butting in.

Sphil, could it be possible that your son is having the visual disturbance that you can get prior to a migraine ? I have had them on their own without a migraine before. It gives you a fuzzy line in your vision, mine is always on the periphery.

It's quite a long thread to go through with loads of information and I thought of loads of things to individual points as I went up but have forgotten them all again.

I wonder if it might be helpful to tell you all a bit about my DD ? She is 8 and in Year 3. I had always felt that everything was always harder work than it should be but could never understand why. When she got to reception she could hardly hold a pencil but she had a fantastic imagination and I told myself that they all develop at different speeds and her imagination and ability to think around a subject was her main strength at that time and the rest would follow.

Her speech was pretty unclear. A couple of HVs had totally dismissed it when finally a new one came to see me when I was expecting my DS. DD happened to be there and the first thing she did when DD was out of the room was ask if I was happy with her speech and said she thought we should get her referred. That was shortly before she started school.

At the first parents evening I was discussing pencil grip, concentration and the speech therapy referral with her teacher. I came home with a nagging feeling realising I had read something on here in connection with these things and started reading up on dyspraxia. It was one of those lightbulb moments when so many things fitted into place for me. DH was unconvinced at first as was my mother who argued strongly that labelling wouldn't help and she was just developing at her own speed.

I approached her teacher and said I thought there was a good chance she was dyspraxic. The teacher said they usually give them a term to settle in before involving the SENCO but if I was happy she would get her in for an assessment.

DD then got referred to the community paed who was a horrible terrifying man (completely unsuitable for his job !) who said that she definitely wasn't dyspraxic because she could do some of the exercises he gave her but did refer her off to the co-ordination clinic at the local hospital, having pretty much laughed at the list I had spent ages making of the things I felt were an issue.

A few weeks later we marched into the Co-ordination clinic, again, me clutching my list ( I had a 6 week old DS at that point and was completley sleep deprived). She had an 1.5 hour long assessment and for the first time I felt that someone understood her. They didn't commit themselves to a diagnosis for some time but DD started a program of OT & Physio. When finally the diagnosis letter came it was from the new Community paed with a dx of dypraxia, hypermobility, hypotonia & speech delay.

In reception she had a best friend who she played with to the exclusion of all other children. They fell out after reception and she did struggle for a couple of years. I've worked very hard on trying to get her to play with as many children as possible and we have people round regularly to play. This has really helped her socially and increased her confidence.

She is currently having speech therapy. When she got to the physio she got her to try to move her tongue, I was pretty gobsmacked to see that it wouldn't move up and down or side to side properly. We got her going on her speech and it improved to a certain level but has needed SALT which she is doing now. She finds it very difficult to maintain appropriate eye contact during a conversation, wiggles around & has had problems regulating the level of her voice. I often have to say things to her a number of times before she will respond.

The practical help that she has received is the OT, physio & speech therapy. She gets one on one sessions with the SENCO, has a number of triangular pens, grips etc, a writing board in class. When she became really demotivated in Year 1 with her writing the classroom assistant would act as a scribe so she didn't get put off contributing as was happening.

We have found that when things go bad socially for her she becomes very distracted in the classroom. There seem to be huge peaks and troughs in how things are. On a fairly even keel at the moment thank goodness but we have all sorts of hurdles to deal with in the next couple of years, the transition to middle school being a big one.

The diagnosis has opened lots of doors for us and it has helped DD understand that there is a good reason why she finds things harder than the other children. Finding things outside school that she can do and enjoys has really helped her self confidence. She does drama at her request having seen a video of a play that her friend's older sister was in. This has really really helped her confidence. We're having trouble getting her out of the group that she should have moved up from a year ago but her drama teacher is great and doesn't want to push her and undo all the good that has come from it so far. She also plays the piano and has a completely fantastic teacher who is a retired first school teacher and works round DD perfectly. The auditory feedback from the pressure she needs to apply to the keys has helped her manage her pencil pressure a little I think.

At home we have to try to be as organised as possible to make things easy for her which will be increasingly important in two years time at Middle School when she will have to be much more independent (not sure I will be sleeping when she goes !) I will be going to make sure that all the teachers understand that when she looks as if she is daydreaming she is often stressed and switching off or is still listening ie is not to be told off for this.

She will probably be transferring to a keyboard at some point to keep up but we're working on her writing as much as possible. The psychologist is on standby if needed for next year when apparently some children do get very stressed about the impending school move.

Developmentally I have found she goes in bursts. Sometimes the difference between her and the others seems big, other times much smaller. The physio says this will be the pattern all the way along and we are able to ring up and have a further lot of sessions at the co-ordination clinic when we feel she needs it which according to them may be in about 2 years time.

Sorry this is so long, there is so much I have missed out I think that I have just got used to. I am really pleased how she is doing, under no illusions that the next few years will be easy. But the key thing for us looking back over the last few years has been the diagnosis which has given us access to professional help and I do feel to a large extent pretty well supported. Hope somewhere in this long burble there is something that might be useful to someone !

Glassofwine · 25/02/2007 09:58

This thread has obviously been going on a while and I must of missed it as it's the first with my name in the title!!!

Now I have a more positive story to tell. I have been worried about my dd aged 7 for over a year. We moved home and therefore school 18 months ago and she was very cross with us about the whole move. Made worse by the fact that she was put in the lower ability groups in her new school and had been in the top ability groups in her previous one. This wasn't as surprising as it might appear as the new school is loads better than the previous one.

She is the youngest in her class, but was always developmentaly early so I wasn't too worried when she started school. Last year however her concentration became very bad, she couldn't pay attention, didn't seem to take on board what she'd been told, was lacking in confidence. I spoke to her teacher , who made me feel like a pushy Mum and said she hadn't noticed anything. I waited until September and a new teacher and a few weeks into term had a word. I was relieved to find that her new teacher also had concerns and I wasn't being dismissed.

Her new teacher agreed to monitor her for 1/2 a term and report back to me and dh. When she did she said that dd may need an IEP, that she was behind the rest of the class, not concentrating and not speaking up in class much. I was v worried and looked into ADD in girls and dd matched many of the criteria. At Christmas her teacher reported back to us that she didn't think she had any specific problems, but it was perhaps just her personality and that she was a very creative child.

DH adn I accepted this, we are a creative family and felt that perhaps dd is more of a creative and less accademic.

In the meantime I've been also giving all the children fish oils.

In the last couple of months I'd noticed that dd seems more confident and settled at school, just before half term her teacher mentioned to me that her confidence at school was much much better that she was coming to ask when she wasn't sure of work etc. In fact she was a little too confident and a bit cheaky - teacher said that because of her history she accepted this, but I should have a word as other teachers wouldnt' be impressed. DH and I were v happy about this, we'd rather have her a bit cheaky but confident.

Then last week her teacher called me in to say that dd was doing v well and in fact up to the middle if not top of the middle ability groups. She had caught up and was were she should be educationaly for the end of the year and still a term to go. Said something along the lines of 'I knew she just needed a bit of nuturing and time and now she's just where she should be'

needless to say i am over the moon. I did think for a long while that there was an identifyable syndrome. I don't know if it was the fish oils, the new fantastically understanding teacher or just a bit of time but we seem to be over the worst.