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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

Original poster

The school are pushing / insisting on underpants.

149 replies

Jadenruby · 17/06/2016 18:02

I'm feeling so under pressure about this as the school are pressuring me to send my DS in underpants, he's still incontinent and although has an interest in the toilet he is unaware of his need to go. his gp and occupational therapist have both confirmed this but the school seem to be ignoring their input.

I'm not sure where to complain to or what to do to get the school to back off. He's 5 and just started the autism disorder assessments.

OP posts:
Newes · 18/06/2016 08:28

Continence issues are a need, Koala and the school has to accommodate that.

PirateJones · 18/06/2016 09:18

What about if the child doesn't have a disability, though?

There are a lot of children who are of school age (4) who have not yet been diagnosed, because the only sign of a disability i slightly delayed co-ordanation and potty training. Neither of these is taken seriously until 5 or 6, so they are medically still well within "normal" guidelines. Some not children are not even assessed until they are 9 or 10 and start falling behind their peirs, Should we deny them an education?

PirateJones · 18/06/2016 09:29

peers*

TheRollingCrone · 18/06/2016 09:35

I can't believe parents are still having to fight this issue. FFS
Flowers OP

IAmAPaleontologist · 18/06/2016 09:48

My ds1 has no disabilities, does not have autism. He did however have terrible constipation and when he started school he would still soil and couldn't feel when he needed a wee so wet unless watched like a hawk and sent to the toilet. He was in pants, he didn't want to be in nappies.

The school he was allocated said we'd have to put him in pull ups and that if he soiled they would not be able to deal with it and I would have to go in to change him. Funnily enough we fought to get him into a school which happily said there was no problem, he could use eye disabled loo to have space to get cleaned up and changed and they would help him.

It is unbelievably crap that there are still schools that are unprepared to help children with continence problems just because they are not physically disabled. Autism, constipation, overactive bladder...there are many reasons why a "normal" child may need help with toileting. You have some great advice OP, stand your ground.

PirateJones · 18/06/2016 10:44

They might try and tell you they don't have changing facilities, you can respond to this telling them that legally they don't need them and can change your son in the toilet or even the corner of the classroom on a towel.
Make a point to ask to see the guidelines they have to have in place for this type of situation.

weirdsister · 18/06/2016 12:14

Have you spoke to the school nurse op? I'm not surprised that you're upset but the law is on your side. The school should have a continence policy. Ask the HT for a copy.

Rainbowcolours1 · 18/06/2016 12:21

Changing a child in the corner of the classroom would be seen as totally unreasonable. Yes, schools do have a duty but with that comes an assumption that all involved have the resources needed. We have a number of children in school wearing nappies, we have a number of staff assigned to change etc. when needed. To make sure that people are available at all times costs the school around £80,000 a year...4 TAs (these are salaries with all on costs). Yes they will be doing other tasks and supporting teachers as well but it does disrupt classes and teaching, if you are a TA, working with a group and then have to leave them to change a child etc.
My school is inclusive, we have many children with a variety of needs and will always try and find a solution. At the moment our budget will allow us to do that but from next year we expect to have to reduce our staffing and therefore reduce our capacity to support and care for children with needs. Yes we do get money, for some children, but this rarely, if ever, covers the actual costs.
I wish people would try to understand the realities for schools and for the staff.

weirdsister · 18/06/2016 12:25

What would your solution be then rainbowcolours1?

Jasonandyawegunorts · 18/06/2016 12:27

I wish people would try to understand the realities for schools and for the staff.

Right okay then, What do you expect the OP to do?

We are talking about realities here, give a realistic answer.

DrownedGirl · 18/06/2016 12:31

Is it a school, or an academy? If a LA school, there will be an LA wide continence policy.

My son started school in nappies/having accidents. Had to meet with the head and assert his rights under the LA policy. After that they started treating him
Properly.

It's a management issue. All schools should also have a medical care policy (by law)

I am a school business manager and have had a lot of experience of meeting children's needs

PM me if you think I can help

Want2bSupermum · 18/06/2016 12:37

My son is autistic and we are in the US where our town as ABA classes from when the child turns 3.

Our son wears a nappy with a pair of underpants on top. One day he will not wear the nappy but that's in the future. Right now we have normalized the wearing of underwear. That's an accomplishment in itself.

If I were you I would be pushing the docs to determine if your child needs an ABA classroom and then push like heck to get your child in one. Best thing we have done for our son IMO.

PotteringAlong · 18/06/2016 12:38

The realistic answer is that schools have to prioritise care. Pupils who need changing cannot be left. So they need immediate attention. Therefore other pupils who require specialist TA help but who don't need them immediately to keep them safe / clean miss out.

MadSprocker · 18/06/2016 12:57

It can easily be done. You just need a disabled toilet (which every school should have) and a mat. I support a child who was in nappies until recently, aged 8. We have other children in reception who wear nappies. The school can cope. Get your OT into the school to help with your battles. Sadly, they will be more likely to listen to a professional, rather than a parent.

Want2bSupermum · 18/06/2016 13:01

pottering between 4 TAs as outlined in an above post, only one is needed to change a diaper in the bathroom. There are still 3 who are available. I don't see why this is an issue and I would be furious if I had to face this attitude that the boy must come to school in underpants. The school would have it from me, both barrels, so there was zero room for them to possibly misunderstand my position on this.

OP - great that he is going through the ASD assessments. Once we had the diagnosis we got very focused on getting the right therapy for our son. It's been a long and expensive road but I'm very happy we are on it.

PotteringAlong · 18/06/2016 15:42

I don't think he should come in underpants at all. I do think one of the TA's should change him. But a previous poster said that they wished people thought about the practicalities and someone else asked what the realistic solution was. I'm just pointing out that with limited funds the realistic solution is the sidelining of another pupil with a TA entitlement. It's not right but it is the reality.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 18/06/2016 16:04

But a previous poster said that they wished people thought about the practicalities and someone else asked what the realistic solution was. I'm just pointing out that with limited funds the realistic solution is the sidelining of another pupil with a TA entitlement. It's not right but it is the reality.

And how is sending him in underpants going to stop or reduce this, all it does is create messier and longer changes, because instead of a nappy they will have to change all clothing.

Logic would suggest that would take even more time?

ReallyTired · 18/06/2016 16:13

"What about if the child doesn't have a disability, though?"

I have never met an NT child who was still in nappies at five. Most children of that age would be mortified to wear a nappy to school. Many NT children train themselves.

The assessment of a child in nappies is to work out what is causing the developmental delay. It is not a question of whether the child is disabled or not. There is no magic wand that can make a child continent before he/she is ready.

Fairylea · 18/06/2016 16:16

My son is 4 and is nowhere near being toilet trained nor will he be for many years yet - he has asd and a severe sensory issue with toilets / phobia of hand dryers. He won't even step foot in a public toilet for example and if I go out with him unless someone else is with me (to leave him with) I can't even go to the toilet myself (as I can't take him with me as he will meltdown).

This has meant he will need long term specialist help to toilet train and certainly for now he will be in nappies for the foreseeable future. Thankfully this has been written into his ehcp - his nursery is getting him into the changing area step by step. He's been there since March (mornings only) and they haven't been able to change his nappy yet as he gets too upset so they are breaking the process down into tiny stages.

I wish people would have more understanding for those whose children aren't out of nappies. The way family members go on at me about ds you'd think that was the most difficult thing about having a child with special needs. In fact it's probably the easiest!

For a lot of people having an older child in nappies is seen as some form of lazy parenting or even something to be disgusted by. It's not. At all.

Schools need to make provision to deal with nappies as they would do any other special need. If a child needed help to eat for example no one would think anything of finding the extra resources or funds to enable that. But changing a nappy - an equally essential part of life for a child who needs it - is somehow often made into a huge thing.

PotteringAlong · 18/06/2016 16:27

jason it wouldn't. I'll repeat what I said at the start. I don't think he should go in pants. I do think they should change him. Read posts properly before you get on your high horse!

Jasonandyawegunorts · 18/06/2016 16:31

Read posts properly before you get on your high horse!

I've read everything in the thread.
rainbow said "Think of the cost of sending him in nappies, think of how much the TA's suffer and so fourth"
I said "what is the alternative, what is a realistic solution"

You said "It would take time from other children"

I said "Right, but how would sending him without nappies fix this?"

Then you tell me to read the thread and get off my high horse.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 18/06/2016 16:32

The point is nothing rainbow has said bears any relevance to the OP.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 18/06/2016 16:34

4 TA's not being able to take 3 minutes to change a child isn't an excuse.

Newes · 18/06/2016 16:51

It doesn't always follow that it disrupts a TA's work with a group as changing can often be scheduled rather than happen at random times. This does, of course, depend on the child and their particular toileting issues.
Also, even with add on costs a TA1 for 6 hours a day is nowhere near £20,000 per year and if they are not employed as a 1:1 that level is more than adequate, with training. They would have at least 5 hours per day engaged in other tasks, maybe across the keystage or school.

Jasonandyawegunorts · 18/06/2016 16:56

I'm still waiting for an answer pottering or rainbow*, even thinking about all the "Realities" which aparently nobody talks about, what can the OP do about this?