Musical instrument lessons at state primary schools.

[Hallgerda]

My children's school's PTA is considering spending some money on this, but I understand that equal opportunity concerns have been raised. I'd be extremely grateful for answers to the following questions, or any other relevant information (as I have several more years of primary school concert attending ahead of me, and you could be helping to save me from yet more little girls jigging about to canned pop...)

At your child's school, do any children learn an instrument at school? Do their parents pay the full cost, or is there some subsidy. Group lessons (if so, what size group?) or individual? If there is subsidy, where does it come from (PTA, school budget, charity)? Who pays for the instruments (and are they all the same sort or a variety).

What proportion of children at the school learn a musical instrument? How are they chosen?

Lots, flute, violin, keyboards, piano, trumput, sax clarinet, cello
Parents pay full cost of lessons direct to music teacher
Parents have to purchase instruments from local shops (usually do schemes where you can pay through the nose for 3 months but return if child doesn't like it)
Some lessons are group, some individual, price around 12 - 15 per 1/2 hour.

No subsidies, if you can't pay, you don't get, v unfair to those who can't. Put your name forward if you're interested & will start lessons when a place becomes available. Probably about 25% of children will learn some instrument at school.

This is a state school in N Cheshire btw (v wealthy area in general though)

Our school offers violin, sax, clarinet, flute, guitar, brass. Classes are up to about 6. They buy in the service from Roundhay Music, and it works out about £5/lesson. There's no subsidy, and they try to accommodate everyone - don't think anyone was turned away. No subsidy that I'm aware of. We provide the instruments ourselves. Out of 120 children, about 20 probably play something, from year 4 up. Oh, and recorder is usually taught in Year 3 by one of the teachers, recorders and books provided from home.

DS is in year 1 and has keyboard lessons, ` lesson a week and a class of 3, it costs £4.50 a half hour lesson. His school also offer violin, guitar and flute lessons, and also singing lessons at £10.00 for half hour

My dd is in Year 2 and is having recorder lessons, she will have the chance to learn other intruments in the Juniors. We had to pay for the recorder and her book, purchased through the school, it is a teacher at school that teaches them in a group and we do not pay for the lessons. The teacher runs 1 lesson a week, but is prepared to do more if the group gets too big.

My dcs school has faffed around with various different options, largely according to the enthusiasms and availability of particular staff members and/or parents.

On the whole I've been unconvinced by the instrumental lessons within the school 15 mins is too short to get any serious learning done, and once the timescale starts slipping some of the lessons are so short there's barely time to get the instrument out of its case. Group lessons are even worse even if three children start out at the same level, some will quickly pull ahead either because they practise more or are naturally more talented. Then there's the temptation for the teacher to concentrate on the more skilled child at the expense of the less able ones, or to try and bring the less able ones up at the risk of holding back the more talented ones.

The cost was not particularly cheap -- maybe £5 for a 15min lesson? Can't remember exactly. Whereas individual private lessons of 30 mins with a proper teacher are about £10-15. My ds learnt more in the first half term with a proper teacher than he did in 18 months of school groups.

I'd make an exception for the recorder, which can be more easily learnt in groups. Older children were also given the opportunity to learn percussion, done in school time and at no extra cost. They were selected by the music teacher at his own discretion.

I may be excessively cynical because of our bad experiences. I'm sure there are schools that manage to have good provision, with children making proper progress and even taking grade exams, but I think that needs to have all the staff, particularly the headteacher, really behind it, otherwise it will all fizzle out into nothing. Another prob is that peripatetic music teachers tend to come and go -- there's nothing worse than shelling out for the instrument, getting the child all fired up and then finding that the lessons stop because the teacher has moved on and there's no will to replace him/her.

If the lessons are to be after school you also need to think carefully about who will supervise children while they wait for their lessons. Some parents may be tempted to use it as a babysitting service. And make very sure that the caretaker is onside -- our provision was quite effectively sabotaged by the caretaker walking around rattling his keys, clearly trying to get everybody out of there as soon as he could.

Sorry not to be more upbeat.

at our school the children are allows to request lessons in all sorts of instruments(violin, guitar, piano, flute, recorder, clarinet,voice etc) the only restriction is if they can get a teacher.

We have a council run music co-operative and they supply most of the teachers.

Parents have to pay the costs themselves (around £6.50/£7.00 for a 20 mins lesson. Groups lessons are available if there are others of the same standard.level)
Instruments can be purchased by individuals or "leased" from the co-operative (dependant on availability, although it doesnt seem to be a problem)

All children are given the choice. Occassionally children have to wait if the instrument teacher is fully booked but you can reguest another teacher from the co-operative.
We are currently on the waiting list for a particular piano teacher for my DD. We are choosing to wait for a space as she is really good (hence why she is fully booked)

The co-operative have also loaned our school brass instruments and our year 4's currently have a class lesson with this instruments.

HTH

Hi Hallgerda

my childrens school have just started teaching an instument to all of year 4. One class (30 children and the teacher and TA) are learning the violin and in the other class (again 30 ) half are learning the trumpet and half the clarinet.

The school managed to get a grant to pay for half of the cost and asked parents to pay (if they wished to ) £40 for the whole year.

It is fantastic, they did a concert just before christmas and we were amazed how much they could do in such a short time.

Tomorrow, the volin class are going to play at a conference to show teachers how well this type of learning works.

Hope this is of some interest to you

Personally (although I may be wrong!), I'm very sceptical about the value of group lessons. I just feel music lessons need to be 1-1 if the dc are to get much out of it.

I'd agree with frogs, I'd make an exception for recorder or say singing but how can a teacher really effectively teach say violin to a group of 15 dc at once?

sorry isgrassgreener, hadn't read your post when I wrote that. Wasn't intended as a criticism of your post, I honestly just don't see how that works

We have piano, mandolin and guitar lessons. Piano and Mandolin are £11 for 1/2 hr one on one, Guitar is the same except teacher will do a 1/4 hr lesson or let two similar level children 'share' a lesson. So DS1 pays for 1/4 hr, but actually has a 1/2 hr lesson with his BF (at teachers suggestion) We provide the guitars, I think it's the same with the Mandolin. No subsidies, children come out of regular lessons to have their music classes.

All very interesting - thank you all.

Berries, I quite take your point over unfairness to those who can't pay, and your local scheme would go down like a lead balloon in my neck of the woods (South London) for that reason. However, if a school has no musical instrument lesson provision because it is being scrupulously fair to everyone, those who want and can afford music lessons for their children just go private anyway - at least your set-up has convenience benefits and may encourage some in the can-afford-it-but-hadn't-thought-of-it category.

batters, very interesting that you see drawing names out of a hat as unfair. If there is a limit on the number of children who can have lessons, how would you choose the children? All Year 2 pupils at DS2 and DS3's school do either recorders (jolly plastic see-through ones available for £5 from the school office) or drumming (no charge for the lessons for either); I've suggested that the best and most diligent at drumming and recorder playing might be selected for music lessons.

crumbs and whatkatydidn'tdo - thanks for reminding me of the existence of music services - I'll see if there's anything like that round here.

totaleclipse, the going rate for music lessons round here is £15 for a half hour (seems to be £12-£15 on this thread) so the £10 singing lesson may have a subsidy element.

frogs, thanks for the reality check! I share your views on group and short lessons.

I'd be particularly interested to hear from anyone whose school has good provision with the children making proper progress and taking grade exams - particularly if they've found a way round the equal opportunities problems.

Well I would say in the defence of group lessons, it depends what you feel they are for.

Obviously you are not going to have the same type of lesson as 1.1 learning and no one would expect 30 children to become fantastic violin players, in this type of lesson. However, as a learning experience you will get 30 children to do something that they may never get the opotunity to do. All other music lessons cost money and some children may never get the chance to do them, or they may have a family that would not even consider putting there child down to learn a musical instrument. So from an inclusive point of view there is much to be gained.

Any child who then decides that they really love violin could then go on and do 1.1 lessons.

I am surprised that you can't see the value in that STC

hi hallgerda, at our primary school music lessons are provided by the county council, we pay £55 per term for weekly guitar group lessons (4 children per group). Individual lessons are only available for those doing grade 5 or over I think.
Concessions are available for people on low income.
Instruments are bought by the parents, VAT relief is available but due to the admin fee is only cost-effective for more expensive instruments.
I'd say about 15% of children learn an instrument at our school - violin, guitar and keyboard, and this is by parental request.
The money, provision of teaching etc. is all handled by county.

I think it's quite expensive and not very good value for money TBH. I'm not keen on group music lessons anyway, and have no idea how long the lessons last - am sure it's not long though. Dd1 has private piano lessons - half an hour on her own with a v. good teacher for £10 - which is money much better spent.
I've met the county guitar teacher and found him very flakey and irritating.

I see what you mean but I'm thinking in terms of learning correct position etc

isgrassgreener, your children's school's scheme sounds interesting and I'd like to know more. I realise you probably won't want to "out" yourself or the school, but could you give any links to the teaching method or the conference?

At our school, brass and windwood lessons are subsidised by the county council - £40 a term. These are provided by visiting music teachers who go into different schools in the area.

Lessons are usually 20-30 minutes once a week, and often shared between 2-3 pupils learning the same instrument and at a similar level. However, my son was the only person in the school learning sax so he got one-to-one lessons.

Instruments are either bought by parents or some are availabe to borrow from the county music service - free but limited number. We bought ours, using the VAT-free scheme. Got a really could deal because we sourced the best deal on the internet, gave the school the order form and they did the rest, so we only paid the VAT-free price.

Some parents rent from a local music shop, after 3 months you can either hand it back, keep on renting or buy the instrument with the 3 months rental deducted.

Every child in Yrs 2-4 now learns recorder once a week, in whole-class situations. Each child was given a recorder and book for free, I think it's some new government scheme. Children in Yrs 5-6 who didn't qualify for these are offered recorded club once lunchtime, but have to provide own recorder and book.

While school music lessons are probably less effective than 'proper' one-to-one lessons elsewhere, it does give a relatively cheap introduction to an instrument. My older two are now paying £120 a term each for lessons at secondary school, and while their teacher is superb, the financial aspect is a huge shock to the system, and at that point it really does raise questions about equal opportunities.

If the PTA is trying to fund music for as many as possible, I would try to focus on recorders first. I know it's not the coolest instrument, but it really is a 'proper' instrument and can give great grounding for further development.

Igg, I probably am being a bit precious about it.

I guess there are two different views on what these kind of lessons should be for: if you want a child to have the chance to learn an instrument as well as he/she is able, then really there's no way round individual lessons. In most primary schools, that means organising it yourself. If, on the other hand, you are aiming to give an opportunity to children who would otherwise not have any contact with instrumental music, then that is more easily achievable in a school/group context.

In terms of cost, the group lessons don't really work out that cheap, assuming you're paying the teacher the going rate. Pushy parents (me, maybe!) may well work out that they'd get a better deal paying privately. Interestingly, all the music teachers I've talked to all say they feel it is important for parents to be paying something, even if there is a subsidy. The consensus seems to be that if the lessons are completely free, they won't be valued. Different if it's part of the main school curriculum, perhaps.

Cost may also determine which instruments you can offer. We had to buy ours, or organise hire privately which is pretty expensive for longer than a few months. You can get a cheap violin for under £50, whereas even an entry-level cello or flute will set you back £300 or so.

I still think the most crucial factor is that the whole school management are completely committed to the project, and ideally are supported by the LEA, and co-ordinated in a sensible way with curriculum music (eg. instrument learning children given the chance to play in assemblies or music lessons). The best intentions of a group of committed parents or PTA members won't really come to fruition if the head and staff aren't on board.

Mine left Primary last year but 'private' peripatetic music lessons had been offered to all children from yr3 upwards for some time. At first, all were slightly subsidised from the school budget, but the Governors voted to abolish this, so parents paid the full cost.
I was Chair of the PTA and asked if there would be any point in the PTA subsidising lessons for those on benefits. In practice, no one ever applied for help.
Instruments offered:
violin
cello
sax
clarinet
oboe
guitar
trumpet
trombone
The pta paid £4000 pa towards the cost of a specialist music teacher who came in each week to take lessons with all the children. She also got the whole of yr3 playing simple tunes on the recorder with a view to stimilating interest in learning an instrument.
When my son left last year there were 27 kids in his class - I think only 4 didn't learn an instrument.
It's a fairly ordinary state single form entry school. I thought that was a brilliant achievement.

That should be 'stimulating' of course!

Ah, batters, I hadn't realised that the drawing from the hat was once only and then your chance had gone! As it would appear there was no subsidy involved, I can't see why the school couldn't have got two violin teachers (or even different instrument teachers) either. Of course, it would be open to anyone whose name was not drawn from the hat to go to the local (er, well, Clapham or Dulwich...) music shop and find a teacher from their list - and it wouldn't cost any more in hourly rate terms (I suspect one couldn't get 15 minute lessons that way).

I suspect at my DS2 and DS3's school there might not be the willingness to pay (or to charge) the unsubsidised going rate.

I think in Herts we pay £12 for a half hour one-to-one lesson. At secondary we have to have 1-2-1, but at primary they were learning in small groups so it kept the cost right down.

My 2 are costing me £300 a term between them, now - EEK!

Hallgerda - I will ask at school for more info, I don't know if this is an LEA scheme that we have bought into or an independant scheme.

Frogs - I know what you mean about the normal lessons offered by school that you can buy into, one of my children does have a 20 min lesson and I don't think he really learns that much.

I realise with the whole class thing, that you will not be able to learn in the same way as a 1.1 lesson, but what it has really achieved so far, is getting lots of children excited and interested in music.
In my childrens school there seems to be such little time given over to music, something that is quite often an issue at state primary school, so seeing this level of interest has been fantastic and I really think it has been great for the childrens self esteem as well.