Musical instrument lessons at state primary schools.

[Hallgerda]

My children's school's PTA is considering spending some money on this, but I understand that equal opportunity concerns have been raised. I'd be extremely grateful for answers to the following questions, or any other relevant information (as I have several more years of primary school concert attending ahead of me, and you could be helping to save me from yet more little girls jigging about to canned pop...)

At your child's school, do any children learn an instrument at school? Do their parents pay the full cost, or is there some subsidy. Group lessons (if so, what size group?) or individual? If there is subsidy, where does it come from (PTA, school budget, charity)? Who pays for the instruments (and are they all the same sort or a variety).

What proportion of children at the school learn a musical instrument? How are they chosen?

amicissima, that sounds marvellous. Would you be able to give a link to the charity?

I've been thinking about all the responses to this thread. When I was at primary school, musical instrument lessons in state schools were free but only selected pupils had them. That position seemed to be pretty much accepted at that time and place - I don't recall any complaints about everyone paying for what only some children received. (Very little that went on in schools was questioned in those days, but then parental involvement wasn't generally expected either).

We've now moved to a very polarised position. In private schools and state schools with more affluent parents, the parents pay the full cost of tuition and instruments (sometimes with subsidy to those who really need it) but the number of pupils that can have lessons is less restricted than it once was. Schools with less affluent parents (unless there's a local charity or music service to step in) either don't do anything or have an uphill struggle juggling funds from various sources, some with strings attached, and agonising over equal opportunities, generally leading to less-than-optimal provision as frogs describes. batters, I was interested in your response to drawing names out of a hat as it sounded like a return to the Seventies position (possibly slightly fairer as it would rule out favouritism) which wasn't seen as so bad at the time, but I can see it would not be acceptable now.

Another question - if your DC have school music lessons, do they use standard musical notation?

The private schools here offer instrumental individual lessons. You pay the teacher direct and buy your own instrument. Some children learn out of school and the parents arrange lessons and some learn in school. I have a term's flute lesson bill on my desk here which is £140. That will be for a term of 30 minute lessons. There are then various music groups in school, orchestras, windbands, choirs etc which are part of what you pay the school fees for. The trumpet teacher has a nice little note to new papers with the statistics that learning an instrument individually helps you in your other lessons/school work surveys show. I think having a one to one lesson/attention is helpful for a lot of children. I don't know what proportion learn but lots do. I don't know about state schools locally.

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Most schools you pay the teacher direct in the private sector so the school gets no profit from it. My ex husband used to manage about 20 or more instrumental teachers that came into the school to teach all kinds of subjects. It did indirectly help the school as they were very good at getting children music scholarships at 13+ to other schools which I suppose helps the school's reputation. Sometimes it's better to learn out of school. As they get older the school tries not to take them out of the more academic lessons. With our children normally we had them learning one instrument at school and one out of school to limit the disruption. It can be a lot easier though to have them learn in school, save us ferrying 5 children to different instrumental teachers out of school hours although sometimes they would come here to teach.

It can be worth learning. On univesrity entrance forms if you don't have very good A levels and are applying to the not such good universities then your marks in music exams grades 6 - 8 help count for "UCAS points".

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Hallgerda - always been standard musical notation for mine, but I think the guitar group used to strum using guitar finger notation.

Thank you all, but it looks as if the PTA will be spending its money on something less controversial .

Thank you, snorkle and amicissima, for bringing up the Government's plans - there's a new thread on News here about that, on which I will comment later.

amicissima, I realised from the start that your local scheme would be of no direct relevance to me (I take it you're in a Northern city - don't answer that if you don't want to!), but sometimes it can help to change things if you put the word round in RL about what someone else is doing better somewhere else, and I'd love to be able to pass the word round about what's happening in your area, so I'm asking one more time for a link (after which I'll shut up and stop bothering you, don't worry ). I'll continue to be awfully though...

amicissima and fortyplus, I'm glad to hear that your children are learning proper notation - round here (in state primary schools rather than private music lessons, obviously) there's an assumption that it's far too hard for the little darlings, even though it surely has to be easier than reading text in English!

snorkle and Xenia, thanks for bringing in the private sector perspective. I think there's less of a state/private divide over this issue than one over whether the majority of parents at a school can afford to pay for lessons. (I have a foot in both camps as DS1's school is in the "affluent parents" category).

Xenia, I agree with all you have said about the benefits of learning an instrument and the convenience of lessons in school time. It's good for children to have some experience of working at something steadily over a long period of time - endless "tasters" with no follow-up won't achieve the same result. It must have been hard arranging practices for 5 children with 2 instruments each (plus adults?)- how did you do it?

Hallgerda - thanks. One last comment... my sons' primary school used to have a Head who passionately believed that learning a musical instrument is of enormous benefit to most children; helps develop the logical/maths side of the brain, helps with organisational skills, the discipline of regular practice has wider benefits and last but not least promotes self esteem.

We're not a musical family; the decision to learn instruments came very much from the children - I wasn't a pushy middle class mummy thinking my little darlings 'must' learn one! But having embarked upon the process, I now think that the Head was dead right.

Hallgerda - have rambled on extensively on the other thread (the government singing one I started) - no great ideas or examples I'm afraid, but a lot about why I think the instrumental teaching rate is so low.

subsidy seems the only way to go, but fairly across the board. would also love to hear other's experiences on anything good going on near them as I know what parents have to pay for instrumental teaching is really expensive, but I also know that you end up earning bugger all as an instrumental teacher unless you're lucky!

Hallgerda, coming late to this but I'll add our experience since it's rather different. Our primary selects 6 children in each year to do cello (this is a council-wide arrangement; the instruments differ in each school). They are selected on the basis of musical tests for ear, sense of rhythm, tone and so on. If your child is selected, you get two 30 minute lessons per week in a group of 3, all completely free. Free instruments too, just pay for the music. I know this sounds unbearably smug, and it is elitist in the sense that it's so selective. To answer the other question, they start in P4 (year 3 I guess) and most have got grade 3 by the time they leave primary school, so it does seem to work pretty well.

MrsJohnCusack, don't worry, I'm well aware that instrumental teachers have to live - my parents have both done peripatetic work!

What happens about musical instrument lessons in schools in Australia? (I hope I've remembered where you are - sorry if I'm wrong. Any international comparisons would be interesting).

Hallgerda - am in NZ, and haven't done any teaching here yet. Fourbob will know a lot more than me, she teaches flute/piano here and is in the whole loop. As far as I can make out it's similar though; peripatetic teaching (they call it 'itinerant' though which makes me laugh), there's a music school for saturday/evening classes, and externally paid teachers at lots of schools (especially private ones) as well. No idea what the take up is though - may ask around as I am starting to meet the right people now.

tamum, that's very interesting. How many pupils are there in a year at your primary school? (I'd be interested to know what proportion of the total number of children those selected represent.)

I love "itinerant", MrsJohnCusack. Sounds like a return to the days of wandering minstrels.

There are about 60, so 10%. I think in the schools where they do other instruments there are sometimes more children, if they feel they can teach them in larger groups. It's quite well structured- throughout the city you end up with an orchestra's worth, so the number of schools offering a given instrument is in proportion to the frequency of that instrument in an orchestra. I didn't explain that very well, sorry!

There are also after school classes for lots of instruments for a nominal price, but that's run by our PTA. The council also runs a Saturday morning scheme for P5 and up doing a whole range of instruments, again all free, and that's not selective. Heaven knows how they manage that.

I am definitely a pushy middle class mum who believes my little darling must learn an instrument. Local primary school had poor provision IMO but is improving rapidly. About a year ago a number of violins were purchased (from county music service?) and offered - I think about 1 class's worth. Choir was started 2 years ago, also relevant IMO. School orchestra and purchase of brass instruments are happening this term. Not sure of other details of provision but happy with increase in profile of music at school from very low level, also county music service offers a lot (Oxfordshire).

Hallgerda sorry I haven't found out that much yet on the whole class violin.
I do know that it is run by our LEA which is Haringey, they provide all of the instruments for the children and three teachers come in for the whole day. The children go out in groups of 4/5 and have a 1/2 hour lesson, then after lunch they have a whole class lesson to practise what they have learnt in the morning together, I think that is for half an hour as well.
I know that the LEA is trying to encourage this scheme, as that is why the children performed at the concert.
It was called "State of Play" National Music Conference and it was at the Roundhouse in Camden on Wednesday this week.
I don't know how much it costs the school to provide these lesson. I will try and find out for you.
It may be worth finding out if anyone from your school or LEA went to the conference seeing as you are in London as well.

isgrassgreener, I'll follow up on that - thanks! Here is a link to the organisation behind the conference, for anyone else who's interested.

Aha! I've just looked into who was at the conference from my area and have found my local music service. They do seem to be offering subsidised music lessons and instrument hire - maybe I can get something moving here...

isgrassgreener, you're being quite remarkably modest about the fact that your children's school's violin class was at THE conference where the Government made its announcement on funding for primary school singing. (I hadn't realised until I looked at the conference website).

" It must have been hard arranging practices for 5 children with 2 instruments each (plus adults?)- how did you do it?"
It was really first the older 3 children. Their father taught them the piano (although I do have grade 8 myself so can give help too). They mostly did their other instrument in school although I did used to drive one on Saturday morning to clarinet.
Yes, getting them to practise is the key thing. My ex husband who is a music teacher always said usually the ones who succeed are the ones with rare exceptions who have a parent who is prepared to sit there through the practice most days. Not easy when you both work.

There's not much point in them learning if they don't regularly practise most days either.

Now it's just the youngest two which is not so hard, although one of the older ones still plays at university. It's still hard to fit it in and do homework.

Well that's because I didn't know it was.....

I have found this thread really interesting. I teach in a primary school in Scotland so the whole school system is different but I hadn't thought about the music provision before. In our school every child has the opportunity to learn guitar and recorder at no cost to the parents other than getting hold of an instrument. They also all get assessed in musical ability and those showing most ability and interest have the opportunity to learn a brass instrument again at no cost and they are provided with an instrument. Lessons for guitar and recorder are in fairly big groups but the brass lessons are usually in groups of 3. Once children reach high school(at about 11yrs) they can learn practically any instrument they like if there is a school instrument available or they are bought one. Lessons at this stage are all one to one and totally free. This is all in addition to the normal music lessons every child has for an hour a week when they learn to play a variety of precussion, read music and sing. Im sad to think that in England only those who can pay get these opportunities.