Poll - are your kids striking tomorrow?

[WalkingdeadWHAT]

Yes or no

If yes, what will you be doing with them?

Some of the content of these tests is clearly silly, or is being taught at too young an age. However, on the wider point, raised by one poster above, of whether or not it's important to learn grammar, rather than using the time to read novels or write stories, I would say that for many children, it is, and that the later primary years are the appropriate time to do so. Some children will "pick up" grammatical writing and correct punctuation through reading widely. But others will not.

My youngest daughter is now in Year 12, so I have lived through the era of telling children that a sentence is "a complete thought", and that you put commas "where you would take a breath". It doesn't work. To understand how to punctuate correctly, some children need to understand explicit grammar, and that includes subordinate clauses. There was a thread recently - I think in AIBU - where a fair number of academics from different universities were lamenting the poor standards of writing of many of their undergraduate students, and another about the poor quality of CVs submitted to employers. They teach grammar in other countries, and I think we should to.

Mine aren't off as not the right age for SATS. I would have taken ds2 out for the month if I'd known how badly our school was going to handle SATS last year (when ds1 did them 2 years previously he barely knew he was doing them). Anyone prepared to put such pressure on 6 and 7 year olds should be ashamed [anger].

No.

Very convenient that the "strike" is happening today, giving a 4 day weekend.

Mine aren't off today.
I do support it, but I think people are deluded if they think taking their DC out of school for a day when it's not SATs week is going to be taken notice of.

I don't know one teacher who supports SATs as they've become, I personally think the only way the government will sit up and pay attention is by all schools in the country boycotting SATs - that's certainly something I would support, and would massively admire teachers for making a stand.

The only people I know whose DC are off today are the ones with a SAHP, none of them are protesting anywhere, they are having an extra long weekend. As one person has said on FB "Yay, another duvet day".

kesstrel I agree with you re grammar teaching

Mine Not off, I don't fully understand all issues.

I get the impression that the new tests have been rushed in and so teachers feel huge pressure (not knowing what's happening) that has been transmitted to some kids.

Over time, Human beings get better at doing the same thing. The logic this year seems to be to bring the tests in as haphazardly as possible to be sure that the teachers can't do a good job of teaching kids to take them, the teachers can't come up with any strategy in time to each well. Didn't someone say this was a deliberate strategy to ensure poor results & push more schools into forced academisation?

No.

I would have some question for the school, not the government if the kids felt the stress at all. Ours have no idea they are on, so totally blame the school. However, how convenient to strike after a bank holiday making it a 4 day weekend.

No. I don't disagree with striking, and would support a teacher's strike, but I'm not comfortable involving my child in the protest, he would have no idea what it was about.

We've recently been getting signs of reluctance to go to school - which may or may not in part be SATs-related. If we told him we were keeping him off for a day because we don't agree with something going on at his school it would be counterproductive. Yes, there are good political/educational reasons for protesting, but what is far more important to US right now is that DS knows he always goes to school on a school day unless he's ill.

I don't know anyone who is striking, but it would surprise me if anyone at DS's school was. I have no idea how his HT and teachers feel about the strike. I know they feel the same as teachers on this thread do about the SATs themselves but the HT is extremely 'on message' and not likely to condone anything controversial. I wouldn't want to let DS's teachers' efforts down by giving him a day off when they are working so hard to help him do as well as he can.

Regarding the strike itself, what is the desired effect and how will it be quantified? I am guessing there will be some publicity on tonight's news, where each side claims success and downplays the other's, and then everything will go back to normal? And it appears that some participating parents (and the DfE evidently!) aren't even properly aware of what it's about. They seem to think they are withdrawing their child from the actual SATs, which is bizarre .

Saturday I and other parents have spoken to head teachers who agreed that the current regime is putting teachers and children under ridiculous pressure and the Government initiatives are totally wrong. Although they could not openly publicise or promote the strike, they both said they totally understood this move by parents, and understood that it is not a protest against schools, but a protest against the government in support of the schools.

Yes, I kept DS off in the end.

We stayed off school , roller skated to park , played games with at least a hundred more , made new friends , found recipe , copied it out bought ingredients and made spag bol . covers all areas of the curriculim i believe.

There's such ignorance on this thread and it really worries me. No one is saying that SATs themselves are absolutely a bad idea; it's the fact that the literacy part especially is just absolute patent nonsense, especially with the recent changes. Worse than a Victorian grammar test and about as useful.

I follow a couple of well known authors on social media and Michael Rosen in particular is condemning these tests in the strongest possible terms. Lots of authors and editors have commented that they only got 30-40% on the sample tests, in spite of making their living from words. How ridiculous is that? The questions are utterly meaningless. Being able to identify abstract grammar parts is not the same as being able to use language correctly. It's a 'yes-no' answer mind-set.

It's a joke. It's teaching our children irrelevant nonsense in order to tick boxes and gather data and the preparation that goes into it strips away more and more time from other aspects of learning. All this to try and emulate some kind of Chinese / Korean slave learning mentality, when all the research from Scandinavia says the opposite - teach children through play, encourage them to be creative and ask questions, encourage them to be happy.

All endless data does is keep pen pushers in jobs - local government, Ofsted and various inspectorates. Data is not god, it's just numbers and letters divorced from the reality of the children sitting the tests. It strips the joy from the classroom for teachers and pupils alike. More importantly, it takes so much time that it stops teachers teaching children the important stuff - how to think critically, recognise and call out bullshit when it's steaming beneath their nose. I wonder why that suits a government intent on keeping the little people little...

Well put Trad, I'm not against tests in themselves but I'm against the harsh and pointless questions.

The maths questions are very hard. One example question for KS1, that is 6 year olds:
Adam, Ben and Charlie share 21 sweets between them. Ben then gives Charlie 2 of his sweets. How many sweets do they now have each?
Given that teachers and schools are going to be judged by the results most schools teach to the test. The maths is one things but the literacy is dreadful. We are going to end up with a nation who can write a grammatically correct sentence but without any interest or soul because that doesn't get marks.

Handclap for Trad!

Not striking and not being worried about sats doesn't = ignorance

I haven't read the whole thread but I work in a primary school and we only had four absences in the whole school today. All in EYFS so not SATs related at all.

I haven't seen any estimates of how many did not attend school today. the BBc website has pictures of a protest gathering in Brighton of around 500 families. And says there about 40,000 families signed the petition.

For comparison, school census data puts the number of primary pupils in England at getting on for the 2m mark.

No absences at my DBro, my DSis, MIL or my DSIL schools All teachers.

Apparently non at my DC school either.

It's just been on Midlands news.... I wonder if it will gather pace and more families will join in next year.

I had a rare chat to DDs teacher today, and said I didn't want' her to get stressed. He said he didn't either, as it would be counterproductive. DD told me today they had a look at where they would sit. That was the total of their SATs preparation for today. There seemed to be a lot of Topic work going on from what I can tell.

Tradgirl I agree that the extent of the content in the grammar tests is too extreme. But that doesn't mean that grammar shouldn't be taught. Which necessarily "being able to identify abstract grammar parts". Arguing that "well-known authors" fail the test doesn't work for me. Well-known authors are highly likely to be people with a natural talent and inclination for reading and writing, and an ability to "pick up" correct grammar and punctuation through reading. They are simply assuming that just be cause they could do this, everyone will be able to.

But that is actually incorrect. We tried that for 30 years and it didn't work. There was a thread just recently here with university lecturers complaining about the poor writing standards of students, and another one about the ungrammatical CVs they receive. Grammar is important in order to understand how to punctuate correctly. Telling children to just put commas "where you would take a breath", as we used to do, doesn't work. Denying this knowledge to children is effectively elitist in its results.

As for Michael Rosen, he is notorious for continuing to deny the evidence that supports the phonics method of teaching reading, when even the Guardian and TES have finally stopped arguing against it, in the face of the evidence that it has raised reading comprehension levels. I've seen his arguments: he repeatedly misrepresents what phonics is, and what phonics experts say, despite being corrected many times. It's dishonest. He is against phonics because it involves explicit instruction rather than discovery learning, and is on record as saying that it involves a "master-servant relationship" between teacher and child. This too is elitist: it's disadvantaged and SEN children who are especially helped by learning phonics.

I am all for good teaching of written English as well. I have recently employed an engineer at work and her distinguishing factor was the quality of her English, so that I actually get someone in my team who can write reports.

However, I do think that at KS2 the basics of grammar are enough and the more nuanced and technical material could be taught at secondary. I still use the precis skills that were drilled at my secondary. The current syllabus is too much too young, and for the lower achievers in particular, they need to be secure in the basics, not flummoxed with complex sentence construction that just makes them feel like they are hopeless at English.

I think I will go and put £10 on the chance of Latin being re introduced to National Curriculum inside 5 years!

I think there needs to be a balance.
Start with achievable standards and work from there.
Not all children , especially as young as 6/7, can remember everything when crammed into one week of testing. I know 16 year olds who struggle with GCSEs for the same reason.
Standards need to be raised, but it's not going to work if they make that standard too high for many of the pupils.
Children of primary school age are too young to feel like failures.

The current syllabus is too much too young, and for the lower achievers in particular, they need to be secure in the basics, not flummoxed with complex sentence construction that just makes them feel like they are hopeless at English.
^
This

I love grammar. I think it's great to be able to talk about language and to be able have the vocabulary to do so. And I think that it's really important for children to be taught explicitly about how their language works.

But that isn't what's happening.

And the thing about writers failing the test isn't that well-known writers aren't able to answer questions about grammar. It's that their writing would fail an assessment for not including the "correct" elements of good writing. Writing to pass an exam and beautiful clear prose are now two entirely different categories of writing.

I agree with both of you Kesstrel and Jasper. We need to teach children basic grammar and punctuation; there's no doubting that. It's the level these stupid tests are pitched at. It's completely unattainable for a normal 6 year old and it's also unnecessary. They will never need the level of detail required at any other time in their life and so it becomes nothing but another tick box exercise.

Teach the absolute basics that are needed for clear and colourful communication. Introduce elements like semi-colons MUCH later. Encourage children to love letters and words and wordplay; encourage them to love books and reading. That's what will help them learn, not telling them they're a failure because they can't use a fucking semi-colon at the age of 6.

I mean, Christ, how completely absurd is that? That we put children off words and books and language at the age of 6 in the interests of gathering fucking empty data to keep some bureaucrat in a job spinning figures for politicians. That we destroy their confidence by setting them up to fail instead of teaching them to love learning. It makes me so angry.