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UrgentSchoolHelp · 30/03/2016 21:02

Perhaps they're just dying to push the agenda that parents should have higher expectations?

Seems slightly coincidental timing given the SATS debacle!

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 30/03/2016 21:14

I think I've found the source. The Lighting Up report by Save the Children quotes the figures from a paper by Usha Goswami. She seems to have got it from another paper from 1994.

55 words @ 16months
225 @ 23 months
573 @ 30 months
6,000 @ 6 years.

What Goswami mentions and Save the Children don't is that the developmental range is huge. Varying from 0 to 500 words at 2 years.

I'm still not clear about exactly why parents not knowing this fact is having low expectations that impact on children's vocabulary development. It seems like unnecessary parent blaming.

museumum · 30/03/2016 21:28

My son had barely five words the day he turned 2.
He's now 2.7 and I cannot even begin to count the words he knows. He speaks all the time. I'd be over 100 words before breakfast!
Child development is clearly not linear and my "expectations" did not effect either his slower start to talking or his current chattiness.

corythatwas · 30/03/2016 22:28

It's the current idea that quantifying and measuring things leads to automatic improvement: children who have more tests at school learn better, the children of parents who know how many words they have speak better...

corythatwas · 30/03/2016 22:31

I am planning an exercise regime of weighing myself 25 times a day in the hope that it will make me lose weight. If it works for the education authorities why shouldn't it work for me?

Out2pasture · 31/03/2016 03:05

sorry i'm late to the party, as a gran i'm always interested in ECD.
but mrz, what point were you trying to make with this link? were you shocked by the numbers?
if neonates learn the parent's dialect in utero, i'm not at all surprised they learn more than we are aware of during the first few years.
of course it is hugely helpful for young parents to learn and know about language development, but as always it is hard to reach those who need the information the most.

mrz · 31/03/2016 06:48

I wasn't trying to make any point

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LittleBearPad · 31/03/2016 09:17

There just doesn't seem to be a clear point to the article.

And yy Cory re measuring and quantifying things far too much.

bojorojo · 31/03/2016 14:08

I think the point is, Whirlwind, that you have identified where your child may have a problem! You are clearly educated sufficiently to know this. You can rad and write proficiently and hold a conversation with a good vocabulary too no doubt. Lots of parents would never realise there is a problem and that their child is very low achieving. They would rarely meet a high achieving child. We are not talking about children whose parents can, and will, do whatever is needed to help and know where any problems may and, importantly, access help. For many parents, they do not know their child is behind, they do not access help and they do not necessarily do what they are asked to do when they are given help. You will find,at schools with chaotic parents, there is little in the lunch box, reading books are frequently lost, and the parents do not come to parents' evenings never mind fill in a reading log! I am assuming a lot of people writing on this thread have never encountered such families.

Health Visitors these days see only the most "at risk" families. They are not necessarily the ones whose children are deprived of conversation, singing and interaction. Well meaning parents can easily expect a child to sit in their wonderfully decorted bedroom with all the latest computer equipment and a TV and barely speak to their child at all. Travellers families do present problems, but they are not the only ones. They are a minority. It has long been taboo to really pinpoint families where there are educational isses so we carry on allowing these children to under-achieve. They will all their lives. We know that and the Government is blaming schools for the lack of progress these children make. It starts much earlier but we appear unable to tackle it because we give precious resources to all children, irrespective of need, and not enoughto those who desperately need it.

WhirlwindHugs · 31/03/2016 18:08

I have nothing against StCs suggestion of better qualified preschool teachers.

But, bojo, I don't think it will help with the situations you describe! I know where I live all the preschool places are hotly in demand, most people put their children down for a place as babies and the only state option isn't able to take 2 year olds. The childrens centre is trying to pressurise the council because most of the most in need families are entitled to funded nursery sessions but aren't getting places for their 2yos - or in some cases 3yos. I know one child who was entitled to a place from 2yo but didn't get one until she was almost 4!

I have been pondering this overnight and because of the confusing way this has been presented the only thing that I think will change is more parents will probably start asking for SALT referrals. Most of which won't be needed and waiting lists for those that do need them will get longer.

I think it would have been better to talk about the length of children's sentences to be honest, because it's less specific but also a good developmental indicator of having a reasonable vocabulary.

I'm not a SALT though. It would be interesting to hear what they thought would be a good way to pick out the kids who need a little push but not medical intervention at a glance.

mrz · 31/03/2016 18:29

Increasing entitlement from 15 hours to 30hours is going to have an impact. Some settings will only be able to accommodate half as any children.

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Out2pasture · 31/03/2016 18:42

Why does nursery have to take on this challenge?
The children need a diverse range of conversational experiences. Doing the same old same old with the same people in a nursery is no better than watching the same movie every day even if it's a good movie.

BackforGood · 31/03/2016 20:22

Really Out2Pasture ? Hmm

You have a very poor opinion of Nursery staff.
What makes you think they will "do the same old same old" in a Nursery ? Confused
The point of the Early Education Entitlement in the first place was to get them in to Nurseries, precisely so the children who come from families where they don't talk to the children all day long, will actually get to be involved in lots of listening, lots of talking, and lots of doing. Yes, there are some Nurseries that are poor, and there are some that are superb, but most are certainly better than a child being ignored all day.
The 30 hours thing was clearly an 'off the cuff' suggestion in the run up to the election to bribe parents with the idea of 30 hours of free childcare without anyone having done any research into how they could make this happen. In our area I believe that getting on for 1/2 the 2 yr olds that are entitled to the 2 yr funding don't have places, and some of the 3 yr olds too. Nurseries are closing as they can't balance the books between what the authority pay them for the "free" hours, and the increase in staff costs with the combination of the new 'Living wage' and the fact they now have to contribute to pensions. How the Gvmt thinks it's going to find quality places for 3 and 4 yr olds for 30 hours a week, is beyond me.

Out2pasture · 31/03/2016 21:03

Nurserys and trained staff are excellent but not as good as a decent home life.

Out2pasture · 31/03/2016 21:17

Encorporating some of this basic child development theory in school along with family planning might be more proactive, more cost effective.
Nursery is nice for many reasons but again it doesn't take the place of a supportive family.

JolieMadame · 31/03/2016 21:19

Depends on the family doesn't it?

BackforGood · 31/03/2016 21:22

But that's the point O2P - many, many children don't have "a decent home life" - that's been the point of trying to get them into a year of Nursery Education before they start school.

MiaowTheCat · 01/04/2016 09:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tobysmum77 · 02/04/2016 06:47

The stats here are a joke, as others have said most people would be Confused. How on earth does someone monitor anyway that a child knows 600 words...? The point though surely is that minimum expected is always confused with 'average' meaning that parents whose children are in line with minimum expected often believe they are average. The reality being that they are below average.

That said there is surely always going to be a range. I have seemingly managed to raise 2 dcs with large vocab, who could have conversations with strangers aged 2, absolutely no idea how. On the other hand my nephew is struggling with speech and my SIL certainly doesn't bung him in front of the telly for hours Angry. Equally my second one has had the same upbringing but her gross motor skills are nothing like her older sister's. I think upbringing isn't the only factor.

EnglishFern · 02/04/2016 08:43

Who are the kids in nursery though? Yes that's right - the kids whose parents have full time jobs. So NOT the neglected kids from generations of non working non apirational non educated non book reading parents.

They are targeting the wrong kids.

And what happened to benign neglect? My parents sure as hell never worried how many words I had at two, and I'm fucked if I'm going to get myself worked up about it either.

As with Sure Start, the kids who really need it won't be the ones receiving it.

EnglishFern · 02/04/2016 08:48

Added to that, my bilingual child doesn't hear a single word of her mother tongue during the 45 hours a week he's in nursery and it hasn't affected the way he has picked up his native language whatsoever. And I'm as big a fan as any of putting him in front of the tv for an hour when he gets home.

The influence a teacher has on language is negligible compared to a parent. I also teach bilingual kids and the ones who don't get any exposure to their school language at home are the ones that struggle. The home language will always be streets ahead of any other language because the hours they spend there compared to at school speaking to a teacher can't compete.

Washediris · 02/04/2016 08:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EnglishFern · 02/04/2016 09:05

Yes, the parents

Voteforpedr0 · 02/04/2016 09:05

English Ferndale, that's so true and I suspect one of the main factors for closing down the sure start centres was that the children that attended were not the ones the centres were set up for. There should've been a certain criteria for being able to access this service, and not parents who had the knowledge and skills in the first place. Makes me so cross and really wish they would bring them back but only invited families who would benefit the most