Primary school curriculum asking too much of children

[Ipsos]

Hi,

I wondered if I might ask what others think of the pace of work in the primary school curriculum in England the Wales?

My son has been struggling at school and I went to talk to the senco. I said I felt that they were asking too much of ds.

The senco agrees and says that she doesn't know any teacher who thinks that the current fast paced learning is healthy or appropriate for little kids of their age. She says people are always talking about mental health problems in young children as if it was some kind of mystery where it comes from, when in fact it's obvious that it's caused by the school system.

She said there is little that the school can do to shield him from this as they have to meet targets or they will be marked down in their ofsted assessment.

I feel really sad for ds that he is being put through this in his early years, which should be a time of free play and freedom to think and develop naturally.

I wondered if anyone might have ideas on how to solve this problem? If people generally agree that the curriculum is too fast paced, could we perhaps start a petition or something?

Thanks!

Not at all grand .. Perhaps I'm naive in thinking people don't assume being a children's author makes one an expert in everything but you for one seem happy to believe the myth.

mrz - not any specific points??

Just ad-hominems?

Just one point - please.

toootired - no you haven't made yourself clear. If I have misunderstood the point you where making perhaps it means you are not as good at communicating as you think you are? I never said English was a single agreed construct. I said English should be standardized. Unless you are saying you want to scrap the NC then we need conformity. I think your comment about 'black' and 'white' English is a bit lot racist! Go on TV and you would be arrested crucified for that.

"Of course children don't 'make it up as they go along!' - no-one would understand them if they did!" - That is exactly my point, a lot of people cant!

I never said there was agreed rules of grammar, I was implying (was I not obvious enough?) there should be!

overtired - Your extended metaphor is nonsense. You WOULD teach an eagle, duck, sparrow etc the rules about aerodynamics and it would make them better fliers. Birds can not fly without understanding the rules of aerodynamics, they are standardized in every planet, in every solar system, in ever galaxy, in every universe their is!

Perhaps a correct metaphor is teaching children how to drive. They all need to learn a standardized method of driving other wise society doesn't function. They all need to learn that you put the same fuel into a car or it wont work! You cant teach they to drive anyway they way they want or put any fuel into the car they want. What you are advocating would cause anarchy! I hope I have been clearer than you!

Lurkedforever1 - I am sorry if I have offended your precious sensibilities with my descriptive language. I am/was not speaking literally, I dont care where 2tired lives, its a metaphor! I guess a lot of mumsnet really is cloistered!

FTI: I never mentioned accents, using regional phrases, or indeed swearing. I was talking about a common inability among younger people to communicate successfully using the English language. So much so they are unemployable, which I have experience of.

PS Yes, you sussed me, mrz.

It was of course all part of a dastardly plot concocted by Michael Rosen and me to mislead the good denizens of MN!

If it hadn't been for you pesky kids etc!

OK first point he says it isn't grammar but it is grammar, the type of grammar taught for decades, the type of grammar found in the DCSF publication (2000) Grammar for Writing by the previous government. Formal grammar v functional grammar.

He says teachers are being forced to stand in front of their classes and talk about the virtues of "expanded noun phrases" is he speaking for all teachers? certainly not those in my school or any I know.

You say Mr Rosen visits schools so that qualifies him to know what's happening in all 25,000 primary schools in England?
If he's encountering the type of teacher who is standing in front if class praising extended noun phrases and blaming the curriculum he should perhaps rethink his association.

"You say Mr Rosen visits schools so that qualifies him to know what's happening in all 25,000 primary schools in England?"

No-one knows what's happening in all schools, and it's over-extending things considerably to suggest that anyone does, or should, or that that is the requirement of background knowledge to comment.

I happen to think Rosen is as wrong on this as he is on phonics. But I don't think hyperbole, or an expectation that deductive reasoning be used when only inductive is possible, is useful.

mrz - you say that Mr Rosen isn't speaking for all teachers - I don't think he's trying to. He's trying to speak for children, not teachers, as although teachers will obviously be affected by the changes, his - and my - primary interest is the children, and the impact of these changes on them.

I'm guessing you don't have a primary-school aged child yourself right now, because if you did, you'd better understand the impact these changes are having on them. I couldn't really care less if every teacher in England thought the changes were wonderful - although they clearly don't, as you can see here:

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-views/dear-secondary-colleagues-when-i-send-my-teacher-assessment

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/ticking-198-boxes-new-primary-assessments-means-days-extra-work

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-views/ministers-must-remember-while-potential-every-child-indeed-limitless

www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-views/i-am-part-teaching-crisis-these-are-reasons-why-i-feel-i-have-no

www.theguardian.com/education/2016/mar/11/primary-school-spelling-tests-dyslexic-pupils-teachers

Your statement that Michael Rosen speaks only for himself would be more convincing, if it were not for the comments on the articles that he posts, such as here:

www.theguardian.com/education/2016/mar/01/nicky-morgan-testing-primary-assessments

or here: www.theguardian.com/education/2015/nov/03/morgan-grammar-test-right-answer-spag-english-spelling-punctuation-grammar

By the way, I assume you personally work in all 25,000 primary schools in the UK, seeing as how you claim to have a greater knowledge of what goes on in them than Mr Rosen does, who has 'only' visited a few hundred of them? Maybe you could enlighten me about when you last visited my son's school? It would have been great to meet and have a chat...

Your critiques are themselves so full of errors I barely know where to start. Your comment about grammar teaching not having changed 'for decades' is mystifying - please link to where primary-aged children were required to know about 'fronted adverbials' or the difference between 'subordinating and co-ordinating conjunctions' prior to this year? I certainly didn't learn this at my primary in the 70s (an excellent primary) and nor did my older two dcs, the younger of whom was in the first year to sit the SPaG test.

When you say "he says it isn't grammar but it is grammar" - what on earth are you referring to? He doesn't say it isn't grammar, he says the grammar presented in the tests is both (on occasion) inaccurate, frequently imprecise and largely pointless. He's not saying fronted adverbials, say, don't exist as grammatical terms, as you appear to be claiming, but rather querying why on earth we should want our 10 or 111-year-old children to be tested and labelled as 'meeting the expected standard for their age' or 'failing to meet the expected standard for their age' on something so fundamentally irrelevant and unnecessary. I could pass or fail a child on whether or not they could translate a recipe from Korean into Bantu, and that would no doubt be both 'real' and 'difficult' but that would not make it a sensible test or a good measure of my child's ability in anything meaningful or anything other than a complete waste of their precious time.

The point he is making is that the content of these exams is arbitrary and capricious. (And occasionally downright wrong.) The tests are invalid because the (very important) inferences that are about to be drawn from them cannot reasonably be drawn (that is the definition of validity - really hope you know this!). Children are about to be judged and in some cases life chances limited based on a test that is a nonsense, a spurious, back-of-the-envelope fiction.

If you don't care about that, then you should not be allowed in any classroom or near children anywhere, and I couldn't care how many years you have in the classroom. I'm just thankful you are nowhere near my child and I pity the poor sods you do teach.

Bolognese - that whole post was a parody, yes?

mrz - to be kind to you, I can only assume you've misunderstood what Rosen wrote. Do re-read the two articles I linked to, or have a look at his blog, as you appear to have misunderstood his point about the difference between prescriptive and descriptive grammar.

mrz - "He says teachers are being forced to stand in front of their classes and talk about the virtues of "expanded noun phrases"".

Where does he say this? Link please? Certainly not in anything I've read.

My brother has visited several schools in the capacity of an electrician. Does that make him qualified to comment on teaching. Thankfully he has the sense to just PAT test the computers and fix the dodgy light fitting as asked by the head.

If you don't care about that, then you should not be allowed in any classroom or near children anywhere, and I couldn't care how many years you have in the classroom. I'm just thankful you are nowhere near my child and I pity the poor sods you do teach.

Really disgusting to see Mrz, a knowledgable and dedicated teacher, insulted in the vicious way she has been above by Toootired. She has devoted a lot of time to informing and advising people on this board, and there is a great deal of respect here for her, justifiably so in my view.

Why is it OK to see Michael Rosen - also a very dedicated professional, who has devoted his life to helping children and bringing them (and their parents) great joy - repeatedly attacked by mrz, in what appears to be a very unprofessional way? I hadn't noticed him joining MN and making repeated ad hominems about her...

She is perfectly entitled to disagree with his views (and I certainly don't agree with all his views on all subjects). But I have been disappointed by her refusal to engage with what is an incredibly important issue, affecting all our dcs, and instead make repeated, personal attacks on a well-respected figure.

I think the issue deserves serious discussion and I am fed up with every attempt to do this being met with personal sneers about Rosen. I've been on MN for over a decade (regular name changes) and this thread has reminded me why I rarely post in this sub-forum. Sure, she's an experienced teacher. But she's not the only one, or the only person with experience that counts. She has attacked me personally several times in this thread already. So if she can give it, I'm sure she can take it as well.

My ds is in yr3, and loving grammar taught at school. So, not every child suffers from new NC.

Ooo tootired did you not read your own link? interesting you should tell me to reread when you don't know what's in it yourself
"Teachers are forced to stand in front of classes and tell them about the virtues of 'expanded noun phrases' as examples of 'good writing', along with, say 'fronted adverbials'. "

grammar for writing I assume you and Mr Rosen have heard of the National Literacy Strategy tootired?

Good to hear, Irvine, and hope that he will continue to enjoy it up to year 6!

I enjoy learning about grammar too, personally. But I worry that there are lots of kids for whom study of grammar of the kind that required by year 6 is both irrelevant and demotivating (just to clarify, I am not arguing that learning any grammar full stop is pointless, rather that the items that have been chosen for the test appear utterly random).

And I worry that the focus on these specific grammar items will take time away from the more important pursuits of reading and actual writing, and will lead to conclusions about pupils ability in English being flawed as they are based on their success in a test which measures a basically meaningless and random construct.

mrz - I sincerely hope my ds's teachers are not on MN during the school day!

And just searched the Grammar for Writing document you linked to - no, no reference to 'fronted adverbials' anywhere.

Your point was...?

mrz is allowed to play on mumsnet during her lunch hour. Her post was 12.01 and her last post was at 12.06.

Or do you object to teachers being allowed the break they are legally entitled to?

If mrz said name of the school she teaches, I would seriously consider moving!

I would love to mrz teach my daugther. I would seriously consider moving as well. Alas such information would out her and it would be a very bad idea to share on Mumsnet.

Too tired I sincerelyhope your daughters teachers aren't in a hospital waiting room