New SATs test on times tables

[BatmanLovesBaubles]

TES link

First three paragraphs:

All children will be tested on their times tables as part of their KS2 Sats, under new plans unveiled by education secretary Nicky Morgan this morning.

The tests will examine multiplication skills in every 11-year-old as part of ministers' "war on innumeracy and illiteracy", the Department for Education said.

Pupils will expected to know all tables up to 12x12, with the skill measured using an "on-screen check" examination to be piloted by 3,000 students in 80 schools this summer before being rolled out across English primaries in 2017.

I am so cross about this.

1. Why remove the Mental Maths test (which did test times tables)
2. More timed tests are NOT what we should be doing at primary where many children already feel under pressure
3. Maths is an area where children often panic and their minds become blank - this is really not going to help
4. What happened to Nicky Morgan's promise that nothing new would be introduced?

I am so, so angry right now

I'm not in favour of yet another test but do think knowing times tables is very useful knowledge and helps with maths rather than being an obstacle.

Absolutely, I spend time every day teaching, practising, rehearsing, recalling and revising times tables. I nag until blue in the face, times tables are essential knowledge. But why do we need yet another test to add to the plethora of tests we already have!!

I agree that times tables should be tested in YR4, not YR6.
It's like very basic stuff you should know by heart, otherwise how can they access more harder stuff later on.
I really don't understand times table have to be a center of attention, it's something everybody should know at certain age, like place value or number bonds?
In my country, they drill it around 7/8 years old until they get it, and assume they know it afterwards. I've never met anybody who got stuck with times table in my childhood in later years, including least able children.

I have a suspicion the answer to that question might be similar to the answer to the question about why we need the PSC, spanieleyes.

I'd rather children weren't given another test in yr6, but from a teaching point of view this shouldn't require any more teaching, should it?

What happened to the arithmetic test they were introducing? Is there a reason this couldn't be part of that?

This is a great idea, it has been a scandal of primary that children leave Y6 not knowing their tables off by heart. As for those people saying its useless knowing them if you dont understand what it means. Clap-trap, they are the basic building blocks of Maths and knowing the answer is the first step to understanding. Its like saying there is no point in reading Shakespeare if you dont understand it. Duh! You usually read it first (even memorise some) then work on your understanding.

Its about time we had some tests done on computers, they wouldn't need to all be done at the same time or even online (the questions aren't secret). Perhaps if this idea works then children could be tested every year, so it becomes routine rather than stressful.

Pipbin

sorry I cant agree with you

"Learning tables is like reciting Shakespeare without understanding the meaning"; really

somethings you have to learn by rote like the alphabet, or is there meaning to that too?

Are primary school teachers really objecting to primary school kids knowing their tables by the end of year 6?

If they don't know them in all but a small percentage then surely that should be an embarrassment for the school and the teachers

Just learning to recite facts doesn't show any understanding.
Just like you could learn to recite the kings and queens of England in order but it doesn't mean you know anything about history or how those kings and queens came to power.

I'm not against the teaching of tables but I don't think it is so vital that we should be tested on them so harshly.

Bolognese
I agree :
"it has been a scandal of primary that children leave Y6 not knowing their tables off by heart."

can primary school teachers please justify this?

the problem is this doesn't affect the kids of teachers, governors, class-room assistants, headmaster/mistress

I wonder how the private schools tackle the times tables!

I don't think any of the teachers on here - myself, spaniel, mrz, batman? - have any problem with the idea that cjhildren shiould know their tables well. In fact most agree that the test should be taken 2 years earlier than suggested.

It is turning it into a high-stakes 'puniosh the teachers' test mixed in with the already pressured week of Y6 SATs that we are unconvinced by. A 'check' in Y4, with 2 more years left for improvement and re-testing, would be fine.

It's the '7 tests in 4 days' aspect, plus the fact that schools / teachers will be graded and punished according to success or failure in these tests, rather than anything else that they do, that doesn't sit well with me.

"with action against teachers who don't come up to scratch"

The point is that if a child doesn't know their times tables in, say, Y4, and they are tested, then putting in interventions and additional teaching, followed by retests in Y5 and if necessary Y6, then that benefits the child and provides them with a more solid foundation for future Maths.

But if the child is only tested in Y6, fails but leaves the school, there is nothing that can be done to benefit the child, except retrospectively ''take action against the teachers'. What's the point? Testing times tables does not 'solve innumeracy'. Providing a process by which children who have not grasped the basics by the time they are in Y4 are supported so that they can make progress to the expected level by the end of Y6 ... that might help solve innumeracy...

Pipbin
the alphabet is not logical, neither are a lot of spellings of words
unfortunately somethings need to be learnt by rote
there is no logic to the sequence of numbers 0 to 9 or the numbers themselves
if we can use logic and understanding ok, but which ever method you advocate the school/teachers should not be able to justify that y6 kids do not know their tables

Testing times tables does not 'solve innumeracy'.

Exactly, the quick recall of facts proves nothing other than you can recall some facts. I'd rather a child who was asked what 6x7 was could say 'I don't know for sure but I do know 5x7 so I'll just add another 7 on to that'. In my opinion that shows a greater understanding.

"school/teachers should not be able to justify that y6 kids do not know their tables"

Has your school, or any teachers there or on here tried to justify this? I know I would not.

teacherwith2kids, you are bang on with the teachers (me, anyway!) not having a problem with children knowing times tables - of course they should!

The tests as they stand are not beneficial to children. Adding another one on top is most unwise in my opinion. A Y4 times tables test a la the Y1 phonics one is a better idea.

Clusters of schools including Y7 teachers from local secondaries moderating each others' books in place of SATs (apart from maybe Reading) is another. Needs work as an idea (open to abuse, possibly) but less opportunity for children to fail / panic under pressure on the day, I think.

The pressure of SATs on primaries is insane. Three years ago we had a child one mark off a L5 in Maths. We found a question (drawing an angle) to be remarked. Her pencil was soft by this stage of the paper, and produced a thick line. She was within the guidance if you measured from the top of the line, but not the bottom. There was nothing in the guidance to say whether you measure from the top or the bottom of the line. Remarked - mark refused. We were gutted to miss out on this L5. It didn't really affect the child at all, tbh. SATs are what primaries sink or swim by

teacherwith2kids
do you not think that it is a scandal that Y6 kids do not know their tables?
I think that it is a reasonable goal for the primary schools and their teachers to ensure that kids that they have for 6 years know their tables (obviously there are going to be exceptions)
how can the primary schools & primary school teachers justify the contrary?

There probably is an argument for using it as part of a range of measures of accountability. The question is how exactly they are going to use the results of this particular test and what will constitute inadequate.

When they announced the arithmetic test 100% pass rates were mentioned which was clearly ridiculous.

"The point is that if a child doesn't know their times tables in, say, Y4, and they are tested, then putting in interventions and additional teaching, followed by retests in Y5 and if necessary Y6, then that benefits the child and provides them with a more solid foundation for future Maths."

Couldn't agree more!!!!!! THIS REALY MAKES SENSE!!! And it's actually benefit the children.

"I think that it is a reasonable goal for the primary schools and their teachers to ensure that kids that they have for 6 years know their tables "

I entirely agree with you that this is a reasonable boal - as do all the teachers on this thread. Though as you say there will be children with SEN, or from multiply disadvantaged backgrounds (when you have a child who arrives in Y4 with no English, or who has been abused and has fled for their life with one parent, or who lives each day in damp B&B accommodation with 6 people sharing a room, or who doesn't have enough to eat, then our first thought is not 'Oh no! I must teach you your times tables').

But equally, do you think it is reasonable for 10-11 year olds to have to take 7 high-stakes tests in 4 days, 4 of them on Maths, as a single summation of their primary school progress?

I read post after post from parents bemoaning the SATs so find it odd that parents are in favour of yet another test. Personally I think timestables could be incorporated into the arithmetic test or done as a screening check in Y4.

I'm not sure MN ever has a homogenous opinion on anything. There are plenty that don't mind the SATs and I've seen a fair number of posts from parents who expected their children to be taught their tables at school but discovered they didn't actually know them. I'd guess it depends on individual experiences of what's going on in different schools.

I have mentioned this on another thread but would like to bring it up here too. Of course children should know their tables by the end of year 6, year 4 in fact. Tables are taught in schools but the memorising of facts is something which must be practised at home. The curriculum is already jam packed and I don't believe valuable lesson time should be spent memorising. Lessons should be about mathematical reasoning, problem solving and the application of skills. The number of parents who help their children with this at home is extremely low in my experience.

teacherwith2kids

the school my kids went to didn't believe in chanting and gave out times table grids in numerical order so the kids just went 5,10,15,20,25,....
2,4,6,8,10,....
which didn't work
so they learnt at home

I don't remember learning times table at school in my country. I think it's done as homework, and tested at school. I don't remember involving my parents either. That was something we needed to be able to do.

If it's an important enough skill that it's vital that parents teach it at home, then it's important enough to teach in school IMO.

Not teaching it and saying that parents should do it is a cop out. You are going to make it a lot harder for children to apply the higher order skills if they don't have the basics. The additional pressure on working memory is going to be too much for some. And by insisting that parents do it you are essentially denying a fairly large number of children access to the full maths curriculum.