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Original poster

Surely this is teaching creationism? How can this be allowed?

129 replies

Redspottygranola · 20/10/2015 20:20

Posted a thread a while ago asking for advice about taking my DS1(5) out of RE and worship as DH and I are atheist but we ended up with a strongly CofE school as we are not in catchment for any other school here and all of the local schools are oversubscribed.
The feedback I had was not to take him out this may have negative repercussions for him amongst his peers etc.
We had parents eve today and I got to look at his books. I was horrified by the RE book which had the following learning objective: I understand that God made everything in the world originally.
Not "some people believe..." Or "Christians believe..." But "I understand". His RE book had more of the same regarding the story of creation etc. It was all presented as factual. What's more a few weeks ago he told me it was a lie that people evolved from monkeys (yes I know it's apes really) because actually God made us and the world.
I am sending him to school to be educated fgs and this is what he is learning!
I spoke to the teacher about it and she said they teach Christianity and Judaism and that is it and she hadn't thought about the way the LO's are worded but she would speak to the RE department about it.
What can I do? Feel so so furious and helpless. Have another 2 DC to go through this and so I will have to deal with this school for 11 more years! Arg!!

OP posts:
Ricardian · 21/10/2015 21:44

It's therefore somewhat hypocritical to be fuming when they teach about Christianity.

Could you point us to the Christian denomination which adheres to young earth creationism? Because aside from the nutcase churches meeting in rented school halls, who don't operate primary schools, there aren't any.

Washediris · 21/10/2015 22:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

findingschools · 21/10/2015 22:22

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

AnyoneButAndre · 21/10/2015 23:10

Hilariously crap spamming there from the GSG - reported, obviously

PigletJohn · 21/10/2015 23:19

time for a complaint to the Good Schools Guide.

[email protected]

[email protected]

overthemill · 21/10/2015 23:28

I used to teach at a CoE school and happen d to observe many RE lessons ( as I shared a classroom) yr 5-8 and I never heard anything like this . There was a very clear presumption that Christian beliefs were not necessarily the majority ( mixed race area) but Christian moral values were taught though not pushed at all. And no way were Creationist views taught. All lessons would be about beliefs but not presented as fact. Is the teacher of these lessons RE trained as they sound a bit inept? I think you should raise it and say clearly that you are trying to decide if you should remove your doc from RE as this is in breach of Govt guidelines

PigletJohn · 21/10/2015 23:40

I wouldn't even agree with the idea of teaching "Christian moral values."

The idea only makes sense if you assume that non-Christians do not have these moral values.

Which is not at all the case.

overthemill · 22/10/2015 12:48

Well it was a CoE school and it taught pupils what Christian moral values were alongside what people of other faiths believed. I think if you want secular education you don't put your kids into a CoE school and withdraw them from RE and Assemblies. The UK is a Christian country with a Monarch who is Head of the Church.

AnyoneButAndre · 22/10/2015 13:00

So does the OP have to quit her job and home educate her children overthemill? Or emigrate? Or set up her own free school? Do tell.

Original poster
Redspottygranola · 22/10/2015 13:10

over I certainly do want secular education!! I actually had no choice but to send him to this school. I know this is hard for some people to accept or believe but as I said in the OP there are 3 state primary's in the town and I am only in catchment for this cofe school. All of the schools are oversubscribed and people in catchment to the other schools have trouble getting their kids in. I don't want to go doe the private route, even if we could afford to with 3 children. The out of town schools are a significant drive in awful rush hour traffic, do not have very good offsted reports and/or are only infants so we would be back to square 1 at year3. I saw a friend yesterday and showed her the photos I took of DS's book with the awful learning objectives and she was v shocked as well. Luckily she is in catchment for the secular school so she had a lucky escape!
We talked through the options and she thinks I should get DD onto the waiting list at her school but there would be no guarantee I could get the other 2 in.
As far being hypocritical etc with my moaning - I have said I don't mind if the beliefs are taught as just that - beliefs. As you can see from the example LO in the OP, the beliefs are being taught as fact and this is my concern. I still don't know what I am going to do but will have a meeting with the teacher and anyone else I can recruit after half term to voice my concerns at least.

OP posts:
Verbena37 · 22/10/2015 13:55

purplesky that is not what all C of E schools write as their LOs at all.
Teaching it as fact in RE lessons isn't allowed in any school and the *OP, I believe should complain.

overthemill · 22/10/2015 18:33

i absolutely understand that you want secular education but we don't have it in this country - we work within govt guidelines and RE is not secular! i think it probably helps teach kids about other cultures and i wouldn't/didn't withdraw my own kids from RE as i think its a useful topic and gives excellent debating and essay writing sills.

no iodinate think you should give up your job and HE your kids - i never said that - i am just stating that in England certainly and probably whole UK school is a reflection of society. and uk is christian,

i think the LO is awful and i'd be complaining - i think its laziness and/or crafting on part of badly trained teacher (as in not trained to teach RE).

TalkinPeece · 22/10/2015 18:36

Redspotty
I'm an atheist.
There are no "secular schools" in the UK State sector.

Some battles are worth fighting : join the National Secular Society and the British Humanist Association : get them on the case of this teacher

and in the mean time, focus on every other part of your child's education and let discussion about RE wither on the vine

by the time you get to secondary it will all be a hazy memory for him

been through it twice

overthemill · 22/10/2015 18:41

good advice talkinpeace

overthemill · 22/10/2015 18:46

btw, i am not religious, do not agree with faith schools and believe that the monarchy should be abolished via peaceful means. but if you sign up to a system you work within it to change it. and like it or not, you live in a christian country and send kids to schools which are in one way or another paid for by the state (all faith schools get govt funding oe way or another). i loved the CoE school i worked in - i didn't think i would but it was genuinely lovely, very caring and kind and christianity wasn't shoved down the throats of the mainly non british white kids. all kids got school trips regardless of their ability to pay, they got shoes & uniform bought for them, it was like a really kind family. i miss it a lot.

nlondondad · 22/10/2015 19:33

But its not the teaching of Christianity that is the issue. Its the teaching of Creationism. A Christian who is a Creationist, is making scientific claims on the basis of religious belief. The Church of England in line with most Christian denominations does not espouse creationism. They have more sense.

Original poster
Redspottygranola · 22/10/2015 19:37

Thanks talkinpeace and others for the good advice. I will be taking up the issue of the wording and the way in which the creation story has been taught after half term and in the mean time just focus on other aspects of his education.
You're right overthemill - I can't change this terrible flawed system but I can't just suck it up either! I have to try to do something even if it's just complaining to the school. It's a little start I suppose and will hopefully make me feel slightly less futile..

OP posts:
overthemill · 22/10/2015 19:41

the teaching of creationism is illegal. i don't think this teacher was, i think it was ineptitude merely. needs to be addressed

redspottygranola good on you - small steps!

TalkinPeece · 22/10/2015 19:56

redspotty
FWIW I became a governor and got involved with the setting of RE policy (I'm a christened and confirmed atheist)
so managed to skew things a bit that way Grin

Original poster
Redspottygranola · 22/10/2015 20:26

over thanks and talkinpeace Grin that is not a bad idea - watch this space!

OP posts:
Ricardian · 22/10/2015 20:45

the teaching of creationism is illegal.

No it isn't. It's grounds for ceasing a funding arrangement (for a free school or an academy) and it's outside the NC (for a maintained school) and will be outside the approved scheme (or whatever the phrase is) agreed by local religious bodies (because creationism is what halfwit nutters advocate: even vaguely serious church people, if we grant their existence, are embarrassed). It's not illegal, because (for example) there's nothing to stop a private school from teaching it, or for someone homeschooling to advocate it.

overthemill · 22/10/2015 22:06

i though [https://humanism.org.uk/2014/06/18/victory-government-bans-existing-future-academies-free-schools-teaching-creationism-science/ this]] had clarified the law? HE is excluded but that's it

ChiefInspectorBarnaby · 22/10/2015 22:18

Very professional talkinpeace Hmm

Ricardian · 22/10/2015 22:23

Er over, that says exactly what I said.

I'm not quite sure how you get "HE is excluded but that's it". All non-state education is excluded, which includes all private schools. What the DfE are saying is that they won't fund, via any of their channels, a school which teaches creationism. Quite right too, and easy for them to do. But that's a long way from "illegal".

TalkinPeece · 22/10/2015 22:25

Chiefinspector
What is your problem?

I'm well informed on CofE : I made sure the school stayed within the letter and spirit of the law
it worked well - the Vicar was fully aware that I'm an atheist and quite happy to work with me.