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Primary education

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Original poster

Surely this is teaching creationism? How can this be allowed?

129 replies

Redspottygranola · 20/10/2015 20:20

Posted a thread a while ago asking for advice about taking my DS1(5) out of RE and worship as DH and I are atheist but we ended up with a strongly CofE school as we are not in catchment for any other school here and all of the local schools are oversubscribed.
The feedback I had was not to take him out this may have negative repercussions for him amongst his peers etc.
We had parents eve today and I got to look at his books. I was horrified by the RE book which had the following learning objective: I understand that God made everything in the world originally.
Not "some people believe..." Or "Christians believe..." But "I understand". His RE book had more of the same regarding the story of creation etc. It was all presented as factual. What's more a few weeks ago he told me it was a lie that people evolved from monkeys (yes I know it's apes really) because actually God made us and the world.
I am sending him to school to be educated fgs and this is what he is learning!
I spoke to the teacher about it and she said they teach Christianity and Judaism and that is it and she hadn't thought about the way the LO's are worded but she would speak to the RE department about it.
What can I do? Feel so so furious and helpless. Have another 2 DC to go through this and so I will have to deal with this school for 11 more years! Arg!!

OP posts:
SuburbanRhonda · 20/10/2015 23:05

It's irrelevant what "most primary schools" teach, purple.

The OP stayed quite clearly that the teacher says they only teach Christianity and Judaism.

Ricardian · 20/10/2015 23:06

They're not exactly teaching mainstream Christianity, either, as it's only nutters that are absolute creationists. None of the mainstream denominations have he slightest problem with evolution, and in fact tend to look down on creationists as being a bit common.

Ricardian · 20/10/2015 23:06

They're not exactly teaching mainstream Christianity, either, as it's only nutters that are absolute creationists. None of the mainstream denominations have he slightest problem with evolution, and in fact tend to look down on creationists as being a bit common.

pieceofpurplesky · 20/10/2015 23:35

Rhonda I really don't get why you are being so arsey about this - I made a comment in my original post that most schools do something about Diwali during Diwali - the OPs school may even do that. I don't get your problem with it at all. My second post was just backing up my first after your comments. My DS only study Judaism and Christianity but did some Diwali celebrations ... I teach at secondary and the feeder primaries have all celebrated Diwali every year

WishIWasWonderwoman · 21/10/2015 04:54

This is very odd. The Church of England is against schools teaching creationism. (See Rowan Williams' statement here)

I would bring this up with whoever you need to, if they are really presenting creationism as fact.

I am an Anglican but I would not be sending my child to a school that denied basic science in the name of God.

Original poster
Redspottygranola · 21/10/2015 10:06

bridge nobody yet fully understands how subatomic particles and forces were "created" (for want of a better word) and so until we do there will always be people who prefer to believe a supreme being of some sort was responsible. The children are not thinking in terms of subatomic particles in their creation stories, however, but about God making the trees and people etc unfortunately.
I checked with DH and he thought the teacher said they would teach other religions than Christianity and Judaism in later years rather than year 1.
DH and I had a heated debate last night - he doesn't feel as strongly as I do about this and thinks we can mitigate the school's influence at home. He doesn't think having a fight with the school would achieve anything as it is a very religious school where aspects of Christianity pervade the school day and so trying to argue over wording in a worksheet wouldn't make much difference. Even if we up sticks and moved to a different part of town (we are here because we need to be close to MIL) there is no guarentee we could get our kids into the other schools - friends who live very close to the other schools have even been refused places there! Feel really stuck in a tricky situation and DH and I are not really in the same page unfortunately Sad

OP posts:
LooseAtTheSeams · 21/10/2015 10:10

Contact the British Humanist Society information on taking it further with either the LEA for the education department. In the meantime, I would withdraw your child from the RE lessons and make it clear that it is because they are presenting creationism as fact and you had no choice over the school so you appreciate their efforts in accommodating your views. CofE schools understandably might assume a belief in God but they don't usually assume they they are creationists!

museumum · 21/10/2015 10:16

I went to catholic schools and had devout practising Catholic parents but even they would have objected strongly if I'd been taught creationism!!

In your position I would ask the school how they plan to reconcile their RE and science LOs.
I would also point out that the CofE does not support a literal belief in the book of Genisis.

Ricardian · 21/10/2015 10:18

He doesn't think having a fight with the school would achieve anything as it is a very religious school where aspects of Christianity pervade the school day and so trying to argue over wording in a worksheet wouldn't make much difference.

There were, of course, other factors, but the accusation (which turned out to be true so far as anyone could tell) that the Durham Free School had been teaching creationism via the medium of worksheets was one of the things that led to its closure. In their case it was happening in secondary science lessons, but the excuse that it was a rogue supply teacher who had been corrected as soon as the matter arose (etc) didn't cut much ice.

LooseAtTheSeams · 21/10/2015 10:21

Just read the update - OP he's right in the sense that if it's a religious school you can't blame it for having a religious ethos. In this case, though, they appear to have have overstepped the mark. You could compromise with DH by saying ok, but still follow up the worksheet with the teacher because she offered to talk to the RE teacher about it - and that might result in a change of wording.
It's a question of choosing your battles, perhaps.

alteredimages · 21/10/2015 10:36

Good grief OP, I would be very concerned in your position.

The real red flag for me was your DS saying that it is lie that people are descended from monkeys. To me, this sounds as though he isn't just being taught the Christian creation story as fact, but evolution is specifically being mentioned and torn down as an argument.

My 5 year old DD may be unusually dense, but there is no way that if she had been taught the Christian/Jewish/ Muslim creation story, she would extrapolate from it that if true, people can't be descended from monkeys. She just doesn't have the logic skills to independently conclude that creationism and evolution are exclusive propositions, in the same way she can't see that growing up to be a fairy mermaids princess is impossible.

I think that is worrying and is much more problematic than a general Christian ethos in the school.

kesstrel · 21/10/2015 12:59

Do you know where he got the "people aren't descended from monkeys" bit? Could it be from another child? Or something he concluded himself? (Rather than something said by the teacher).

mummytime · 21/10/2015 13:13

If it is a C of E school, then I would put questions to the Diocesian Education committee, I know my Diocese wouldn't be that happy.

To be honest that kind of learning objective should be seen as "sensitive" and a lot more thought should have gone into it, and it should have been worded in a much more sensitive way.
I would certainly make my concerns known to the school.

But I do have to agree with your DH, that your children's eventual religious beliefs will not be overly influenced by this (or even necessarily by the way you raise them).

Original poster
Redspottygranola · 21/10/2015 13:36

Thanks all for the replies. kesstrel I'm not sure why he decided about the human evolution bit - we had talked quite a lot previously about the idea of dinosaurs evolving into birds as he is dinosaur mad and this had led to him asking about people so I said we evolved from monkeys ( yes I know that is VERY simplified but he is only 5). Then about a week or so later he came into the kitchen and out of the blue said that I had told him a lie about people evolving from monkeys because God made us and everything else. I have tried to tell him that some people believe in a God and that is how people used to explain things (such as eclipses and thunderstorms etc) back in the olden times but he just says it true actually and I am lying Sad. So I try not to get into an argument with him anymore because he has twigged on to the fact it winds me up...

OP posts:
Original poster
Redspottygranola · 21/10/2015 16:54

Maybe I should have put this into AIBU to get more traffic!

OP posts:
Blueandwhitelover · 21/10/2015 17:56

Do the school have a policy to cover this? I don't actually know where you stand on it, can you withdraw the child from the lesson if it is the school's policy to teach it that way and by sending your child to the school you surely have agreed to abide with its policies?
It definitely doesn't sound like the right school for your family's beliefs but I would imagine that the majority of families are happy with the way it is being taught.
I'd be really interested to hear how you get on. I've only ever had one child removed from an RE class by parents. (Funnily enough, they were happy for their child to be in the Nativity play though)

TalkinPeece · 21/10/2015 18:29

So I try not to get into an argument with him anymore because he has twigged on to the fact it winds me up...

And therein lies your answer

do not engage with him on it
reinforce lots of nice science stuff at home
evolution ~ dinosaurs ~ the big bang ~ astronomy ~ fossil hunting
if possible, watch telly programmes about other parts of the world
and let him grow out of it
he will
but if you give him an easy way to wind you up, he'll take it

TheFallenMadonna · 21/10/2015 18:37

Ask to meet the teacher. Clarify whether your son has, in fact, been taught that humans did not evolve from a common ancestor with other apes, but we're created as they are. Explain your concerns, and ask for more information about the RE topic they are doing. I would want to know if they were working from an actual creationist viewpoint, or whether that was your son's interpretation. In which case I would be pointing out to the teacher that perhaps they might want to address this in their teaching.

Littleonesaid · 21/10/2015 18:44

You have knowingly chosen to send your DC to a school which is fundamentally at odds with your beliefs. It's therefore somewhat hypocritical to be fuming when they teach about Christianity.
Stop moaning and move house/put your DC on waiting list for another school. You do have other options.

WishIWasWonderwoman · 21/10/2015 19:26

If they are teaching creationism you can bring this up with the Diocesan Education board. They should stop it, it is against CofE policy to teach creationism.

But are they teaching creationism or guided evolution? Can you ask the school to look at work from higher years? It might be that it moves from God made the world to God made the world through evolution as the children get older.

Maybe your DS said "we come from monkeys" and the teacher said "no, that's not quite true."

Or it could be a rogue teacher who is teaching creationism, and who needs to be brought to the schools attention. Or indeed the whole school might be doing it which needs to be raised with the Diocese and/or the relevant government agencies.

Husbanddoestheironing · 21/10/2015 19:40

Upsetting when this sort of thing happens. We have successfully countered this type of teaching about Christianity at school (though not quite as extreme) by having lots of lovely kids science books to discuss, and by explaining that some people believe the bible stories etc told are real and some people believe they are just nice stories (often about being kind to people) and that we feel they (our DCs) can choose for themselves what they want to believe. Open discussion vs indoctrination has won so far, and IMHO has the advantage of not sewing the seed of extreme rebellion in any direction for the teenage years.

AnyoneButAndre · 21/10/2015 20:51

Littleonesaid - the OP would not have a problem with the school teaching "about" Christianity. Christianity is part of the world just like the EU and Abstract Modernism and knowing about it is an essential part of a complete education. Teaching the precepts of Christianity as fact in an RE lesson is more problematic in a school which many atheists or members of other faiths have not chosen, they've been lumbered with for lack of other choices. But this school is (maybe) not even doing that; it appears to be teaching extremist beliefs which are no part of C of E (or Catholic) doctrine just because they feel like it. Should the OP just suck that up or home ed? What if the RE teacher decides next week that true Christians don't use contraception, or drive cars or watch TV?

catsrus · 21/10/2015 20:59

bad RE teaching (ex RE teacher here) take it up with the diocese - they need to use properly trained RE teachers. We see lots of posts on here from parents struggling with teachers who get basic maths wrong (BODMAS / BIDMAS anyone?) as well as basic English. RE teaching is no less important. If it's taught by people who are simply repeating their own bad teaching and not by people TRAINED to teach it then what can you expect?

TalkinPeece · 21/10/2015 21:06

littleone
in much of the country the only primary schools are CofE
some are good, some are bad
but they are mostly CofE

PigletJohn · 21/10/2015 21:07

www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uYQuvwQ4y-k

"some people may like to think the Battle of Hastings was in 1266"