School talking about possibility of moving 4yr old from Reception to Nursery

[ShadowSlipping]

NC for this in case I out myself.

My 4 yr old has just started Reception. He's an August baby and was 6 weeks early, so if he'd been born at term, he'd have been in the next academic year.

His new school has an attached school nursery that he didn't attend, as we were hoping that he'd get a place at our local school (which doesn't have a school nursery). DS instead stayed at a local private nursery which he'd been at a few days a week since he was a baby. Our local school was oversubscribed, and DS didn't get a place, so this didn't work out.

Things have not been going smoothly at his new school. We got called into a meeting with his class teacher and the head teacher.
Firstly, he's behind the other children academically. The main thing here is that most of his classmates attended the school nursery, and they have all been taught phonics in nursery, so are ready for the next steps in learning to read. DS's nursery don't teach phonics - they told me that if a child asks to learn, they'll help, but otherwise, they don't teach them as the school's do this in reception anyway. So DS is new to phonics and struggling to catch up with the others.
Secondly, his behaviour isn't great, he's struggling to sit still and pay attention during group work. I suspect this is partly down to him being behind the other kids, as they say he's better when being taught one to one. And also, he still wants to just play a lot of the time, so I think part of the problem is his relative immaturity. The teachers also think part of the problem is DS adjusting to the new environment and more structured routines.
He's also very tired when he gets home from school and it's been a struggle getting him to focus on his homework.

The teachers suggested possibly moving him down into the school nursery class (and then on into Reception in the next academic year and so on) might be in DS's best interests. But they want to keep DS where he is for another week or two so they can be sure it's not just settling in issues. They've also said that if DS stays in Reception, he's going to have to do lots of extra work, both at home, and in school with his teacher and the TAs, so will have less playtime than his classmates. They've set up another meeting for a fortnights time to discuss this again.

I have had concerns about DS's readiness for school, although as I don't know many small children, I didn't know if I was being all PFB and worrying about nothing. But now we've had this meeting with the school, I'm definitely concerned. I'm feeling that even if they say they think he'll probably be okay in Reception, I'd rather he went into the nursery class so that he won't be burdened with all the pressure of this catch up work. I'd be less concerned if he was actually focusing and paying attention well in class. His behaviour at school this week seems to be getting worse rather than better too.

So... would it be reasonable to ask that he moves down into nursery, even if they come back and say DS will probably cope if we do all this extra work? They said they won't move him without our consent, but DH reckons that they're likely to be overly optimistic about DS's ability to cope because he thinks a lot of parents would view this sort of proposal negatively.

Bless him, he's only just four and still a baby. Okay not a baby but you know what I mean.

My DS was a December baby so was nearly 5 when he started school. No way would he have been ready in the January a few weeks after his 4th birthday, he struggled at almost 5.
Bite their hand off for the nursery place so he has a chance to play without all the pressure. He will pick up phonics etc much more easily that way.
Reception always used to be about repeating the foundation stage and learning through play. It sounds like this school are pressuring the children very early.

I would make absolutely sure that moving him down to nursery means he is guaranteed a place at reception the following year. If you have to go through the CAF process again he may not get a place at that school in the following years cohort. What would you do in that circumstance?

I would be very, very careful before doing anything, and discuss with your LA, especially if the school say you are guaranteed a place if you move him down. IME any child held back has to apply along with everyone else the next year.

Also the cynic in me thinks that they need to reduce their class size for some reason. Do you know how many are in the class currently? Whether there were any appeals that has meant they go over the 30 class size limit?

Please talk to the LA. In person if you can. It would be a nightmare to find yourself going through the whole application thing again.

Do you particularly want a very academic primary school?

Is it a private school?

Blimey. My ds has just started school too and we went to a parents' evening on phonics tonight. They said they assume no knowledge at all. I know ds's nursery did bits and bobs but not focussed. I didn't know any nursery did.

Ds is youngest for his year too (January but we're in Scotland) and I worry about his emotional maturity and whether he's making friends but the idea of holding him back in playtime and making him practise phonics is dreadful! What are they thinking?

We get homework btw - a letter tracing sheet, a tricky word to learn and a book to read every night.

DS2 was premature (July when he should have been September) and he was not ready for school.

We delayed him and he had an extra year at nursery and then completed reception. By the end of reception he was still a bit behind emotionally and academically but socially he was great.

He's just started year 1 and his concentration, pencil control etc are just starting to come together. I can't imagine him in Year 2.

For DS2 it was absolutely the best decision. I feel we gave him the school start he was supposed to have before his prematurity got in the way.

If you're planning to keep him at that school, and if they can guarantee him a reception place for next year (can private schools do this? I know state schools can't) then I would definitely transfer him to the nursery. The idea of doing more extra work, homework, and less playing time is appalling at that age - if the alternative is another year of play in nursery, go for it!. I've just got permission from my local authority for my August born 4yo to start reception next year instead of this year and I'm so relieved for her. She is just not ready for formal school yet.

My DS was taught a few letters and numbers in nursery but not with any depth. He didn't remember a thing!

However since starting school this month, he's learnt one letter a day and can retain the info

I would much rather my child was the eldest in the year, then the youngest

This sounds like my nephews school. The nursery looks and feels more like reception, and the reception class looks and feels more like year 1. All the children coming up from the school nursery (which is the vast majority) are ahead and then reception is straight into a bums on seats approach, of half day structured learning, only half day play based. They pride themselves on doing year 1 work in reception. I feel it's very wrong but the school is high achieving and in demand. They have passed the pressure down to the DC and I think it's wrong.

Is ,this a private school op?

It's much easier to stay down a year in the private system. The only issue could be for senior entry. I know someone who has just repeated year 6 at their prep school as,the senior school was happy.

I would be nervous doing it in reception until there was a,recognised basis for doing so which whilst being discussed isn't in place yet.

I'd possibly kook for a,different school.

The school sounds awful! EYFS means reception should be about learning through play, not daily written homework and sitting at desks. It just doesn't suit most reception-aged children. They should be inspired to learn and ask questions and absorb things like a sponge, not be learning in a formal setting.

Our school encourages kids to scribble on the floor or against a wall or anywhere they feel comfortable. The outside classroom has mirrored learning opportunities to suit those (often boys) who need space and air and big equipment. They are constantly learning but without being forced in to an unnatural environment.

This is a bog standard state school in a culturally mixed area. Everything is differentiated for a vast array of ages, needs and behaviours. It works.

Definitely check with the LA about the implications of moving him down. At the moment it definitely sounds like the best option by far. However, it would be very damaging if that means he has to skip a whole year later on to get back in with his age cohort.

Please visit other local schools to see what is normal and how you feel when you see different settings. What works for one child doesn't make the school right for yours. Remember that ofsted ratings do not tell you whether your child will be happy and start school with enthusiasm or have that co fife cd crushed.

Good luck.

group work? focus? homework?

Dds playing with farm animals and a doll house

her teacher said 10 mins taking max on the carpet is absolute limit.

what your saying sounds far to much. or maybe Dds school is just slack cos she plays with play dough and colours.

if there is no other option absolutely move him down.

I have worked, in the past, with some children who have been moved out of their 'correct' age group in school.

In all cases, they had very significant SEN - usually working at P levels (below that expected for a year 1 child) in Years 3 or 4.

Anything less significant - and I have taught classes with up to 35% SEN - was always managed effectively through differentiation within the same year group.

When teaching a Year 1/2 class early in the school year - so children had just moved out of a very play-based EYFS Reception class into quite a structured next class up - I did have one boy who found the increased expectations in terms of structured tasks really tricky. We differentiated for him within his own class for Maths / English / Phonics in the mornings, and he was also with them for PE and Art, but for other lessons (typically after break / in the afternoon) he was able to join the free-flow Reception class. The Reception teacher and I planned together so that he covered the same topics, just in a different way and at his own pace and level.

Could something similar work for your child - so that for this initial 'settling in' period, he spends some parts of each day in each group?

(I echo all the others who say that this sounds APPALLING educational practice - not surprising if it is in a private school, but shocking if it is a normal state primary)

In one (good) state school I have worked in, it was normal for some children to arrive with no spoken language in reception, and having never seen a book, let alone not knowing all their Phonics. 100% pass rates in the Year 1 Phonics screening, and a good set of Year 2 SATs results, were entirely the norm ... without moving anyone down a year,

Lots of things to think about here.

Sounds like we have to get guarantees about what happens with entry to Reception, and then entry into secondary school, if DS does get moved down. Even if we do all think moving down would be good for DS now, it wouldn't be at all good for DS to later have to skip Year 7. And having to reapply for primary school would be majorly stressful if there's no guaranteed progression from nursery to Reception.

But I am feeling a bit reassured about DS's ability and maturity in so far as a fair number of posts are suggesting that the main issue may be the school being too pressured. That's something I wasn't really thinking about because I was sort of assuming that all primary schools would have similar structures and expectations. Evidently this isn't the case and is maybe something that DH and I need to consider in the next couple of weeks.

In my opinion and with limited experience I think all premature children should be offered to be put into the correct school year judged by their due date, not actual birthday.

I think the school sounds great, not awful as pp claim. They are aware that this is not something to be dealt with by differentiation. dd2 has a girl in her class who should be in yr2 but luckily got to stay in nursery an extra year. She is only just getting to grips with forming letters etc at the start of yr1 and would have had an absolutely miserable time if she'd stayed with her cohort.

I wouldn't hesitate to give him that extra year as long as you can get assurances that he will stay in that year throughout his school career.

"They are aware that this is not something to be dealt with by differentiation."

Not knowing phonics, and not being able to sit for long periods, are ABSOLUTELY NORMAL, and age appropriate, for children just entering Reception - and as for wanting to play all the time, play should make up most of the school day in the EYFS, of which Reception is the final year.

So, far from 'not being able to be dealt with by differentiation', the school is actually saying that they can't cope with a child who is meeting age related expectations in the correct year group! As Ii said above, to move down a year group IME, children have been at least 3, often more, years below age related expectations - for example just starting to learn the first letter of their name in Y3.

Think a bit hard - DS1 is right at the end of August, and went to school not really knowing anything about reading (he knew some letters, and he could count).

He also had great trouble settling down (he didn't know how to sit crosslegged!), he hadn't done phonics at his nursery either, and holding a pencil was very tough for him.

It was never suggested that he move down a year, and as time progressed he got better at sitting still and listening, his reading picked up very quickly (although we're still really struggling with writing a year later - but not outside the realms of normal), and the school were totally fine with that. They understood that he was the youngest in the year, they got to know him and what motivated him, and I don't think keeping him back would have done him any favours really.

I for one don't think the school is being unreasonable and a few are jumping to conclusions based on a few lines from op. They and op have concerns. They are being realistic saying at some point in the future he will need to try to catch up or it will greatly affect him in a few years.

Reception class routines and structure just mean the kids taking more self responsibility like lunchtimes etc but it is still very much play based learning with the odd 15 min or so sitting on carpet or round a table to help get them ready gradually for next year. (sis teaches reception)
Phonics mostly through songs and rhyming and learning to recognise.

I am actually surprised that the private nursery did nothing regarding phonics as I thought they all had to conform to certain guidelines and individual needs. My DD's nursery did specific things with the preschool kids a couple of times a day. The rest of the time the kids were mixed.

"Reception class routines and structure just mean the kids taking more self responsibility like lunchtimes etc but it is still very much play based learning with the odd 15 min or so sitting on carpet or round a table to help get them ready gradually for next year. (sis teaches reception)
Phonics mostly through songs and rhyming and learning to recognise."

I would agree that is is absolutely normal for almost all Reception classes. OP, however, describes a very different type of Reception experience - which is why many on here suggest that she might want to visit other schools to see if what her son is experiencing is 'normal'.

My children both went to the school pre-school. They didn't do any phonics at all. They did teach them to write their name but that was about it.

I would look into other schools. They should be differentiating the work so he can do what he is able to do. Never heard of a child moving back down into the pre-school.

I would definitely ask for him to go into the nursery class, seems in his best interests, then hopefully next year he will be exceeding expectations

They've also said that if DS stays in Reception, he's going to have to do lots of extra work, both at home, and in school with his teacher and the TAs, so will have less playtime than his classmates

I find this a bit dubious.

My DS had an awful reception year - massive over sized class which I'm not sure how they got away with - went backwards with his basics phonics knowledge from nursery and home ( basically the jolly phonics songs and recognising those sounds from print) and everything tbh.

His teacher wasn't great - blamed him and us.

His confidence plummeted his behaviour deteriorated.

We decided we had to step in mid ish year - it wasn't hours and hours of work - it was 10 minutes daily admittedly for months with dancing bears a phonics program.

Within 12 months he'd gone from not being able to read and really not wanting to try to being in the top reading group.

His next teacher was a good one though - so I'd be asking around and see if this attitude is same throughout the school or just this one teacher. If the school has good results is it because all the children are being tutored on top of school and how do they cope with children with SEN or other hindrances as English being second language?

A friend at same school as mine was offered the wondrous chance of having her DS go part-time in reception - and they were really lucky they were offering it. They worked full time so it wasn't possible but they also felt their DC would miss out on lesson he needed and opportunities that would advance him. It then offered to another DC who was needing slightly more support than most DC- later turned out was just at a time they were struggling with staffing levels for a variety of reasons. I'd hope they were linked but I know my friend wondered - and her DS was doing fine by end of reception.

I think you need to ask lots of questions about this offer before you say yay or nay.

God, I think I would have fallen off my chair if my DC's school had said that to me after just starting reception I am not a worrier but what they are saying and the way they are saying it would make anyone anxious. You have my sympathies.

My DC went to a private (gorgeous) nursery with no phonics and arrived in reception with no formal schooling behind him. So we would, I'm guessing, be in a similar position.

I think there are 2 separate issues: a) your DS being very young in his school year and the implications of that and b) his school having very high academic expecations of children at all ages (nursery, reception etc), expectations which really do sound outside of the norm. Certainly VERY different to my DC's school.

So with 2 different but interlinked issues at play I guess you have to decide: Is this the right school for your son? Does its ethos etc fit with what you want in a school? If you want this school for your son and given your concerns about his 'immaturity' (for want of a better word) you'd be best keeping him back a year to make things easier for him and also to stop this school year being unpleasant for you too with their forecast of doom and gloom for him. (Though you'd need assurances that being a year older wouldn't come back to bite him at any point in his school career).

If you don't think it's the right school for your son and you don't want him to be kept back a year (I think you would find it very hard to find another school which would offer to keep him back, esp at this point in school year), then you need to find out ASAP what you can do to get it changed. Remember your child only legally needs to be in school after 5th birthday so you may have some time to have him at home and explore your options.

What a shame that you have to be dealing with all this when you think you've just got your child all sorted and now they just need to settle in to school life.

I have only heard of this happening once before and it was a very similar story to yours. The child is now Y4 and the outcome has been mixed really and I'm not sure the mum would make the same choice today.

Basically, similar to you. Class of 30, 27 of whom had attended the school nursery. This boy had not. The other 3 children who had not were autumn born girls. There was also a very unusual quirk that meant that although he was clearly the youngest with an end of August birthday, the next youngest was early April. I've never seen that before in 20yrs of teaching but it was put down to bring a new build school and estate and couples moving in and getting pg at the same time. Anyway, he was clearly very very far behind both academically and socially do she agreed. It was great for him socially and he did very well throughout the infants. However, by Y2 he had matured and ended up well ahead academically and I think she now wishes she'd left him where he was although she acknowledges that the social outcome may have been very different. Maybe she's on here and can give you sage advice.
EYFS should be very play based and a good reception teacher differentiates massively in that first half term. I think in the case know of, it was just a random mass of coincidences which meant he was so behind. 27 out of 30 having covered all letter sounds in detail plus 2 others able to keep up and one little boy barely mature enough to recognise the letter his name began with was a unique scenario. If your scenario is similar then I guess you need to weigh up the social benefit of rejoining nursery. Oh and this boy will progress into Y7 without issue according to his LEA but do check that especially if the senior school is either private or an academy.

Other 2 not 3