Opting out of RE - real experiences please

[Redspottygranola]

DS1 has just started year 1 of a CofE primary. It is the only school we are in catchment for and all the other local schools are oversubscribed so there is no chance we can move him (or DS2 and DD when they are old enough). The school is excellent except that it is way more religious than I thought it would be. DH and I are atheists although DH doesn't get anywhere near as bothered as me about the brain washing. They thank god before lunch and say lots of prayers at assembly- their RE content is around how good Christians can please god rather than exploring other cultures and beliefs. DS1 is sponging it all up hook line and sinker and it's really starting to grate on me. Am considering opting him out of the worshipping and RE but would like to hear other parents' experiences. No god botherers please.

Even in a non denominational school there will still be prayers in assemblies etc. You'll probably find that the RE will cover different topics throughout the year.
I don't know why you're letting it bother you. Surely it's ok for your ds to be 'sponging it all up' why does he have to believe the same as you? I'm an atheist (and an advocate of RE) and I still resent my parents trying to make me follow their beliefs. Let him make up his own mind - it could be much worse!

It bothers me because he now totally believes unquestionably about a mythical deity who created the universe! I'm a science teacher! He can make his own mind up when he has the faculties to weigh up all the evidence and come to his own conclusions- he can't do that aged 5. It is brain washing. I don't want my child brainwashed with a load of crap! Of course it bothers me! I can't understand why it doesn't bother more people! Anyway I am looking for real experiences of people who have managed to opt their DC out please?

I went to standard primary schools and in one of them there were 2 students whose parents asked them to be removed from the RE lessons and they were put in another room to do other subjects.

In secondary school when it came to GCSE time my sister asked not to take part in the lessons (we're atheists too) and was also removed. Sorry I have no direct experience of CofE schools though. I did have an atheist RE teacher in secondary school which didn't go down too well with some parents.

My ds came home in year 1 and asked us what religion we are - we don't have one we reply. 'Oh, I'm a catholic'

roll on 3 years and he doesn't believe in God but still happily says grace at school lunch and sings in church twice a year

We have always talked about religions as we have lots of churches and synagogues near us as well as a big mosque so he has had lots of questions. If you are supporting at home and encouraging a questioning mind he will work out his way himself.

We have books about different religions, philosophy and evolution which ds has enjoyed and give a more rounded picture

You are obviously teaching your DC your beliefs which sadly seem to show a massive lack of tolerance and respect. He is much more likely to believe what he has been told by his own parents for the last 5/6 years of his life than what he has been told by people at school quite recently. I don't see the problem really. Can't you just say "some people believe that and that's fine, but we believe this which is also fine?" Why not teach him to be kind rather than aggressive and insulting? Let him experience the different religions and make his mind up himself rather than have your views imposed on him.

Do you let him believe in Father Christmas? The tooth fairy? Cos last time I checked they were fictional too...

Seriously don't get why you're so determined to segregate him on something so silly. He'll grow up and grow out of it.

As for your 'no god botherers' comment that just shows how tolerant a person you are. Suppose that's why you want your ds to be the same. Shame.

I'm an atheist with a science PhD, who also taught Biology.

I wouidn't dream of pulling my kids out of RE. They don't want to be singled out at at school. Even in a cofE school RE lessons will cover world faiths. I see RE as a good cultural & philosophical education as well.

The only children I know pulled out of assemblies at a c of e school were very religious - just not Christians.

Ds2 came out with lots of godly stuff when younger & had now decided he's atheist. He's taking RE for GCSE because the course content looks interesting. He would make a great vicar, so it's a shame he can't believe in God really.

Ds3 is still quite into religion - although I'm not sure how much his school has taught him. When we went to look at a catholic secondary he said in a loud voice in the car park 'is it Catholics who don't believe in Jesus?'

Let children make up their own minds. My parents were atheist/agnostic and I'm pleased they let me explore religion as a child (I was in the church choir & music group, and youth group & went to parish camp etc).

I am broadly CofE and my parents would describe themselves the same, in that we follow the Christian calendar, but only go to church for events not for services etc. my DH is an scientist and atheist.
Our DC understood Christianity (we celebrate Easter for the chocolate and Christmas for the presents) and went to a school that sung hymns and prayed. They talked about God and Jesus, just like they talked about dinosaurs and whatever else they were learning at the time. They are now teenagers and have both formed there own choices.

I think it is very hard for an atheist parent to send their child to an school for an education, expect to work alongside the school in supporting that education (reading practice, backing up the teacher on the importance of remaining still and not chatting in carpet time etc) and then find that the there is an area of curriculum you just cannot accept is being taught as fact, and support that.

I think I would not remove him, but calmly explain that all religions are a matter of personal belief, some believe this, some worship Ganesh, you do not have religion and work in science which shows us how and why the wonderful things happen and can show us how the Universe was made. Then keep up a low level 'some people believe...' and 'your school is a church school so they believe....'

DS went to a nursery and came home telling me that 'it is raining because God is cross with us, we have been naughty '. He's just starting his triple science GCSE years with top grades, and gives a very articulate expiation of his own ( developed when he was 8 and added to ad his knowledge increases), as to why he does not believe in God.

OK OP. You don't seem to have received replies from the demographic you needed, and you'll not get one here either, but hopefully this will be more constructive for you.

2 things: Religious worship, and Religious Education.

a) Religious Worship
You can withdraw your child from worship, so any praying etc. This would include part of assemblies, graces before school, and anything else they do. It may be sitting in a side room, or just standing outside the hall for a short time. The school have to accommodate this, but your son may be the only one (you can ask this), and it may be boring, and he may feel separated. If you opt out of this you will also be opting out of nativity plays, carol concerts etc, which could be quite separating and distressing.

b) Religious Education
This over time should cover a variety of religions, but they are clearly starting with Christianity which makes sense. However, in RE lessons, they should be saying 'Christians believe' not 'This is true'. It shouldn't be necessary to withdraw from RE if they are giving it a balanced approach. Thi8s is worth raising with the school with a 'can you explain how this is couched in RE lessons, as DS seems to think it is being told as fact. Do you use the same wording for teaching Christianity as Islam'.

You have 3 choices

1. Put up with it, and continue to give a balanced view at home. 'Yes lots of people at your school think XXX, we think YYY, other people think ZZZ, when you are older you can decide what you believe'. And repeat. But do check how they teach RE, it would not be unreasonable to ask for balance in RE lessons.

2. Ask for your child to be withdrawn from Worship (and RE if you really insist). But you would have to take the consequences of your DS feeling quite separate from a lot of the life of the school, especially if he is the only one.

3. Put your DS on as many waiting lists as possible and pray (!) that a space comes up he is eligible for. Younger siblings may then get in to new school on sibling rule.

hth

No god botherers please.

You sound lovely (and I am not one)

No god botherers please.

Sorry, but you lost me right there and I am, like PP a non believer.

Thanks very much to the many helpful posters - I think I will speak to his teacher about it but I guess trying to remove him from the religious aspects of daily school life would be sadly impractical- it is so pervasive. Last autumn term RE was about festivals including Diwali and the harvest. Whilst I still have a big problem with thanking God rather than the farmers for our food it seemed fairly innocuous. This term is is thinking about wether God wants Christians to care for the planet and about some questions about Jesus. How is this culturally balanced or indeed talking about Christianity as a belief system rather than fact?
To rainbow and wombat - if a person does not share your beliefs does that instantly make that person totally intolerant and aggressive? Other people can believe anything they like as long as it doesn't bother my family. My best friend and roommate at uni was an evangelical Christian which provoked lots of interesting discussions - we're still friends 20 years later. Lots of the mums I know go to church etc and are very happy with the religious aspects at school - that's fine and we're still all friends! It is possible to have different opinions and not be a horribly intolerant person you know! I am rather intolerant of people imposing fantasy as fact onto my impressionable children, however!
As for passing on my intolerant beliefs - well I hardly sit him down every day and drum into him the lack of a god. We talk about things he is interested in such as animals and Lego. When he does mention God I do say that it's something some people believe in etc.

I think opting out of RE is rather intolerant.

If your child does not learn about world faiths at school, are you going to teach about them at home instead? Or require them to just follow your belief system instead?

(For positively believing there is no god, a matter which is not susceptible to proof, is a matter of belief just as much as believing there is one. Agnosticism always strikes me as the neutral/rational stance).

In a diverse society, I think more understanding of different faiths and religions is a very positive thing. And I can't square fundamentalists who opt their children out learning about them at school with furthering that aim.

I'm an atheist but would not remove my dc from religious education at school as I'd be worried about isolating them from their peers. At my school, only children with strongly religious parents were removed from r.e.

From an atheist perspective, i think school r.e lessons are a good way for children to encounter different religious beliefs for the first time, either on a theoretical level or because the teacher personally holds those beliefs. At some point in their lives they will encounter people in their lives with strongly held religious beliefs which (in my opinion) are not backed up by any evidence, and r.e classes are a good way for them to learn to handle this in a safe environment, and to formulate their own beliefs.

Also, for me, learning about religion at school, which was taught in a very bland way, led me to see religion as something unexciting and very much part of the 'establishment' which I wanted to rebel against. This probably led me along the path to becoming a confirmed atheist . By taking your dc out of religious education they may see it as something interesting and a bit subversive. So it might have the opposite effect to the one you hoped.

I think its you're posting style that has come across as being rude, aggressive and intolerant OP, not the fact that you're an atheist (and yes I too am an atheist). Particularly the no God botherers please comment - if you can't see how that is rude or unpleasant then I shan't waste my time explaining it to you.

Also I'm not sure if you actually understand fully what your son is being taught as

their RE content is around how good Christians can please god rather than exploring other cultures and beliefs

Doesn't really match up with

Last autumn term RE was about festivals including Diwali and the harvest

In case you're unclear Diwali is not a Christian festival - so there's clearly a level of balance and exploration in your son's RE teaching.

As PP have said I don't understand why you're so upset about something you consider mythical - If you are rather intolerant of people imposing fantasy as fact onto my impressionable children would you also not want the school to read him fairy stories or mention Father Christmas or the Easter bunny as I'm sure that these will be presented as fact also?

I can appreciate how you feel OP. I fail to understand why the church thinks it's OK to expect children to sit through religious worship at school. Even in CofE schools many offer places on distance only so how is it appropriate to offer only religious worship at assembly with no alternative. I know there is some outdated legislation to that effect but it's not followed at any of the community schools bear us. Worship and religion is a personal thing and kids are impressionable especially the little ones. I have no real issue with RE lessons but really do object to it forming part of assembly etc. which should be about bringing the school together and not pushing one religious view of the world.

sunshine I did say that last autumn term the RE content was a lot more balanced as it focused on Diwali. Please read my posts before attempting to pick holes in them.
I'm trying to ignore the references to Santa etc as I don't know any adults who still fervently believe in him or the Easter bunny! Obviously not relevant.
As for being aggressive - well I do find that rich. Christians dictate that a non believer's soul will be eternally damned to burn in hell which is pretty darn aggressive IMO. I don't threaten my children or friends in this way if they refuse not to believe in god.
cge yes totally agree!

You sound unreasonably annoyed by your child being exposed to something other than atheism. As aa teacher I wouldn't pull him out, it makes him obviously different for reasons he doesn't understand.

Plus you claim RE is only about a Christians, last term they studied diwali!!

Remember you are hearing your sons account of RE, not what is actually being said.

All state schools teach RE which gives a greater emphasis to Christianity than other religions. However for 50% of the year the children should be covering other religions.

They are a church school so they will probably Christianity as 'we believe this' because, well, they do.

You sent your child to a church school in an (officially) Christian country in a school system which (rightly or wrongly) values British traditions such as Xmas etc. I understand it was your only school choice but your issues are actually with the whole state school system, not just this school.

I really strongly believe that if you dont like it you SHOULD withdraw. I can't bear parents who bitch about an element of the curriculum where they can withdraw and then don't!!

To be fair your school does sound like it takes religious observance seriously. I find that schools an vary in their approach.
My son went to a Catholic school despite not being Catholic. They were not especially OTT though. Grace before lunch often consisted of "rub a dub dub, thanks for the grub". The HT justified it with "not all children are Christian. On the other hand my niece doing teacher training and on placement in a Catholic school says they do prayers three times a day.

To reassure you....my DS wanted to attend Holy Communion classes and be baptised. We spent ages talking it through and he attended the classes after which he still wanted to be baptised. He was baptised and made his first Holy Communion. Four years on that ship has sailed but sadly for him I joined the church choir (it helps me enjoy the Mass) and quite enjoy it. He now stands alongside be when I am required and glowers.

Actually OP I can read fine thanks - and none of your previous posts say that the Autumn term was more balanced or recognise that you're aware Diwali is a non-Christian festival - I suggest you take your own advice as you're clearly not communicating very effectively - perhaps one reason why others have suggested you're being a bit rude.

None of my Christian friends have ever threatened me with burning in Hell, and none of them actually believe that to be the case. I'm sorry if that's the case for you but I'd say it says more about the Christians that you seem to have encountered than about Christianity as a whole - it's a pretty flexible and diverse religion - as your son will no doubt learn in RE

OP I do actually completely agree with you. I'm currently pregnant and even now, as an atheist, I am concerned about how religion might be imposed on my child in school. rven though It's years away!

However, I don't get why you've enrolled your child I a CofE school? I know you've said it's been different to how you imagined it, but surely by it's very nature it would be obvious how religion would be touted there?

I think it's very important for kids to learn about religion (historically crucial and interesting! ) however there's obviously going to be a heavy bias in a faith school.

I'd start by discussing it with the class teacher. It's a shame that it's your only option for school and you might like to look at the British Humanist Association which campaigns against faith schools.

You can't send your child to a C of E school and then moan it's religious. You just can't.