Primary school admission under medical criteria

[Faz2015]

Hi I need some advise Plz. My daughter has a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder. She is currently attending a school nursery, which is not the closest to my home. I applied to keep her at the same school( reception) u set the medical criteria or the LA admission criteria( medical is second on the criteria). I supported her application with letter from paediatrician, gp, speech and Lang therapist, health visitors, and family support workers. All supporting my application to keep her at that school for continuity.

They refused her a place, staying that we live too far and it was parental choice to put her tgere, so they won't take medical evidence into consideration.

I asked the admissions to review my application again and gave more information as to why my daughter needs to stay there. They wrote to all the 6 professionals asking if they think it is necessary for her to stay on. They all said it will be detrimental to her development if she is taken out and put into another school. Admission team has again disregard the doctors advise. Now they want proof as to why I put her there in the first pkace( we were looking to relocate at that time.)

I am appealing but I don't understand what the admission team is doing. As They won't take consultant and professional opinion into account but want proof of us trying to buy a house?

I don't know what to do.. As I'm worried we might not win on appeal cod of infant class size.pleasr advise

In the end looking at it dispassionately the ONLY way this one was going to be won was is if the OP proved the move fell through through no fault of her own and she had no idea of dc's difficulties before she placed dc in that nursery.

Otherwise there is no evidence to counter the LEA's argument the op did it all deliberately to circumvent the usual admission process. Ultimately the tribunal is ultimately always going to uphold the admissions process.

This case was always a bit dodgy, just needed the LEA to trot out how many children with ASD successfully transition between different social groups at nursery level (eg mainstream nursery to special and vice versa, where a child goes to a nursery without attached primary) and the medical critiria was wobbly. As it was without a statement the medical criteria was irrelevant anyway, which is what they were arguing to successfully get the medical evidence disregarded.

Nothing was done to counter the LEA's actual arguments, neither the one above nor that the OP is cheating the system. That is by knowingly putting her child in the nursery school thinking the asd diagnosis would place her higher up on list (and that the house move never existed) or pulling out of the house move when she thought she had the school it on medical criteria anyway. It is never a good idea blithly arguing your own point if the LEAs argument renders it utterly irrelevant anyway. LEA'S do not fight clean.

Seriously OP I would take this as a learning curve. If you haven't yet got an ehc plan you probably need to do this ASAP. You may be able to challenge the school at that point. Also bear in mind that a lot of what needs to be done schooling wise isn't known pre-school. It isn't unusual to get a change of school later, whether that is mainstream to mainstream or mainstream to special or more unusually special to mainstream. If you can get legal advice, even if it is just a free half hour.

I would be looking at what makes the school you want uniquely featured to support your child. What it has that other schools haven't

I am sorry but the last two posts are complete rubbish and show no understanding of the admissions system.

The OP did NOT need to prove that the move fell through through no fault of her own.

The OP did NOT need to prove that she had no idea of her child's difficulties before placing her in the nursery.

The LA's argument that the OP did it to circumvent the usual admission process is entirely irrelevant. Her application was not fraudulent nor was it deliberately misleading. The OP was entitled to put her child in any nursery where she could get a place. If medical professionals offer the opinion that the child then needs to go to the attached school this should qualify the child for consideration under the special medical needs category if the school has one. Whether or not the child would have any chance of getting a place normally is irrelevant.

The LA trotting out how many children with ASD successfully transition between different social groups should be treated by the appeal panel the same way as a parent trotting out generalised evidence about ASD, i.e. they should have ignored it. What matters is this child, not ASD children in general. Medical evidence relating specifically to this child from professionals always trumps generalised evidence.

The fact the OP's child does not have a statement is irrelevant, although obviously if an ECH plan was in place naming this school there would have been no need for this appeal.

What the OP did was not cheating the system. Based on the information posted by the OP the LA's argument was irrelevant. The OP's argument was not rendered irrelevant by the LA's argument. Indeed, the OP's argument could not be rendered irrelevant.

The OP submitted medical evidence that her child needed to go to this school. The LA apparently failed to consider that evidence on spurious grounds. If the LA did fail to consider that evidence it is a clear failure to administer admissions correctly.

As I posted above, there are two ways the appeal panel could validly refuse this appeal:

• they concluded that the LA followed the correct process but explained their actions poorly to the OP and that the decision not to give medical priority was not unreasonable

• they concluded that the LA did not follow the correct process but decided that the OP would not have got a place even if the correct process had been followed

If the LA's argument is as described by the OP and has been accepted by the appeal panel there is a good chance the LGO would intervene. If the LA gives priority to pupils on medical grounds it cannot refuse on the basis they appear to have given here.

Toffeelatteplease, what version of the appeals code have you been reading?? There are set rules to follow in the admissions process and this LA didn't follow them.

I hope you are right prh47bridge. Otherwise you are sending the op on a very stressful wild goose chase.

Can I suggest that you actually request assessment for a statement? (Or whatever they are called in your area?) This would have saved all of these shenanigans and is sbsutely the normal and usual way that children with ASD are given school placements. Nursery should have been on this a year ago so that the named school was in place, and you should have requested it if they were unwilling to do so. By using medical criteria you are trying to use a system not designed for this purpose.

Get your letter requesting assessment in as soon as possible alongside whatever else you are doing.

^ yes this.

So sorry fax you did not win appeal does sound like you maybe stand a good chance at log local government ombudsmen.

I empathise as have a child with sen myself allocated our 3rd preference which I feel is total unsuitable for him.

The statements system changed to ehcp in September it's educational health care plan when heath and education work together intergrated best needs for the child. Early years and sen departments have combined to become the 0-25 service.

In our case we were misinformed we were told the educational phycologist had to observe him and submit his ehcp application by speech and language and peaditrician. He started at preschool September finally saw educational phycologist I'm December who trotted out any mainstream school can cope with sen and gets 15hours of funding support and that statements were her remit but plans no that's preschool who I think we're out if depth in haste applied on 17th December.

Of course all too late for admissions deadline of 15th Jan so write extensive notes on we awaiting assessment speech therapy report.

He started nursery in jan as felt better suited his special needs and the senco had done like 20 plans knew sen inside and out and said she was concerned I had no outcome of ehcp application as many she had submitted with more complex needs have been denied.

So I rang 0-25 service and asked what's going on and they said it's denied he's not met criteria ans not let preschool myself peaditrician or speech and language know the outcome or Discuss.

I of course was upset but felt would wait and see what happens in school allocations day.

anyways he failed get small village school that his elder sisters at. Our la does not give non local siblings priority we live just over a mile but outside area of prime responsability. The took no consideration of his sen as no ehcp no medical Need all went on distance.

He finally got space on local nhs trust assessment nursery which meant taking him out of his setting he was happy on and taking him other side if city. He has extremely anxiety issued non verbal says 15words hates new places changes and large crowds yet allocated 3form intake infant school.

He's one week left but so far he's been diagnosed with severe speech delay and verbal dyspraxia. We don't know when or if he ever talk like most kids he turned 4 in april feel so stressed an sad about it .sisters school would have been best mainstream school.

These a school with resource base but other side of city which he can't get without ehcp ans I can't get my 3 primary aged kids to 3 separate primaries miles apart.

so we awaiting primary appeal.
I'm appealing without prejudice not infant class size as the pan is 20 for 1st preference school.

my counciller has wrote letter of support.

I'm campaigning locally to try change future admission policy and apr.

I'M awaiting outcome of his assessment and then will appeal his ehcp plan as right now he's being sent to wrong school with no additional supposed and council saying he has no needs.

Not sure this work but may buy you more time. Nursery school said he could go back in sept so accepted and defered 3rd preference school as they get free 15hours early years education grant until term after their 50 birthday so ask nursery can she stay on longer.

Thank you everyone for your kind words and advise... i did say on friday that i would let you all know the details of the hearing (this will be a bit long)..

firstly i would like to say that I always had a great deal of rescpect for fairness within the system.. maybe it was my naivity to think that if rules are followed than that will equal to success.. wow was i proven wrong by our lovely LA!

I am sure many of you are aware from my previous posts that I have emailed the LEA many times asking times since 16th of April

1. who was involed in the decision making process?

2.Were there any specific criteria that was used when considering the medical documentations? 3.what are the specific reasons to why my dd was refused a place under medical criteria?

1. And more recently on 1st of June.. i asked the LA(when they asked me to provide the evidence of the failed house sale)why was this information relevant to a medical criteria?

I recived no reply... until the mroming before my hearing.... stating that they are under no legal obligation to seek external medical advise.. (I copied the email in my previous posts)... I got really irate with the way they handeled their communicaiton with me.. that i emailed a complaint to the council on thursday night(1045 PM)- i didnt want to do it after the hearing, as i didnt want them to think its a disgrauntle mum taking out anger on the LA)..now when i spoke to the complaints dept of the council they told me, that a complaint will have no inpact on my hearing as its compltely indepent.. BIG BIG BIG mistake....!!!!

at the hearing which was at 250Pm on friday(less than 24 hours).. the manager of the admissions team during her presentation brings up that i made a complaint against them....and that they had infact got advise from the educataional psychologist and they have contacted the head of my DS current headteacher... baiscally, her presentation said that the educational psycologist has said that the transition would not effect my ds... i was in such a shock that i was speechless...at the end of the presentation i did object to the fact that the complaints was brought in to the hearing.. and the LA turned around and said yes because as a result of the complaint i had to gather all this information...

so after I questioned her.. she acknolwled that the educational psychologist was contacted friday morning as a result of the complaint and she got a statement from the head about my DD. i refused for it to be submitted as it was last minute and the info was due to my complaint...

when i asked the LA as to their criteria for looking at medical evidence, she said taht it was case by case and she needed to see the information the house purchase to get a better idea of the case...when i asked her that why didnt they contact me for these info before the allocation or even explain to me when i emailed them i could have and would have rpovided them with whatever they needed.. i also asked why did they write again to the docs/ professionals .. and she said that they wanted to see if they had anything extra to add...she argued on infant class size and the school capacity...

any eveidence that we provided or any point we brought up such as why wasnt i contacted about the extra info.. she said it is parents responsibility to provide.. but how can i provide if i dont know what is not written on their cirteria...

i asked about the docs opinion, and her reply was we get many letters from doctors and we make out own consistent decsion based on other cases that we recieve...

the panel on the other hand.. seemed to know the LA by her first name basis( i dont know how familiar the panel gets with the LA)....they didnt have many questions to the LA only confiriming about the infant class size and the school capacity..

for my presentaion, i just told them about my dds behavioural issues, why the familiarity of the environment, firends and staff are so important...and that the LA didnt follow arragenment as they didnt seek extrenal advise when considering the medical documents, they used their own unpublished criteria and their own judgement without any framwork or procedure when they disregared the medical info..

where as with me.. they asked me.. which road did we want to buy a house on? who came to look after my dd when my second dd was born..?? how did my did react to the new baby? whydid i choose to put her in that specifc school and no other school in the local area??? how long does these behavioural issues last.. when did she last wet/soil herseelf?? would i get help from the parent support workers if i needed help again.. how does my baby sleep when my dd is having night terrors and screming fits...?if i understood the medical criteria.. if i was sure that i understood the medical criteria...why didnt i get EHC? did i go to the allocated school since i was offered a place there?what would i do about my second dd when it was time to put her to school.. when are we looking to buy another house?? what are my priorites for choosing to buy a house.. the location, close vicinity of being with our firends and then school???

i was ripped to pieces by the panel to a point that i was nearly in tears.....i didnt have anything to say at my closing statement apart from that LA made mistake in applying the admission criteria and that it would be detrimental to her if she didnt get a place....

i was so shaken up.. that i just wanted to leave...

it felt like that the decision was already made even before the appeal started..

I feel like a fool for having so much faith in the system... since my daughter got her diagnosis.. i always recieved help and support from the medical teams.. and i never questioned the school.. when they insited that we should wait till reception until we get a EHC plan.. i thought that the LA would follow their rules and not use lies against families....

if nothing else.. i have now learnt not to be so naieve about the fact that the LA would do what is best for a child...

sorry for all the typos... i know this post is very long!!!

Prh..... thank you for your continual support and encourgement.. i will email you the documents for you to have a look at aswell...

Toffeelatte... im assuming you dont have a child with SEN... beacuse if you did, you would know how immoral and degrading it would be to use a childs disability to get a place at school... just for your informaition .. as to my "intentions" to get my dd into the school.... I currently live 0.2miles from the most oversubsribed school in our LA which is OFSTED Outstanding.. and the school that my dd has been allocated a place has a better SAT result in LEVEL 4+ and level 5 has a new state of the art campus then the school im fighting for.... so no i did not use my childs ASD as an application card..

mcfarts... yes after this experince yes i will be fighting for a EHC plan... as i have now lost faith....

I would like to contact the MP or the Councillor to ask to look into this..but im scared that the LA might make it difficult for my dd at her allocated schooll....if the LA can lie, and overlook thier shortcomings and ignore medical recommendations.. they can do anything.....

I am sorry you were given such a hard time.

The questions they were asking were essentially to challenge your assertion that it would be seriously damaging to your DD for her to experience change. So they were asking about her experiences of social change (eg new baby ). They are trying to get an impression of your child. There questioning was also testing out the LEA's hinted at theory that you never had any intention of moving into the area. Unfortunately not having an ehc plan seems to have acted against you as they seem to have been suggesting that if she doesn't meet the criteria for medical need on an ehc plan how can she meet medical criteria for admissions.

Unfortunately whilst the complaint was without prejudice to your tribunal, it probably clued them in on any holes in their argument before the tribunal.

Trying to help you understand what you have gone through. No judgement. I am sorry no one prepared you for how challenging the process would be.

I don't know what is going on generally, But people I know who had ehc plans had them ready for the start of school. (Usually you need an ehc plan or statement to even vaguely get special). I would be wary of any school that discourages you from applying for ehc. Although there is still a lot of confusion over it. You might find you had a lucky escape.

Please seek some real world legal advice. If you do go it alone make sure you do address what the LEA are saying. Especially if you can disprove/discredit it and move on. Get someone to practice your questions over and over. Especially any hard ones you don't want to answer.

one more thing plz.. what is the LGO?
many thanks!!!

With the greatest of respect your assumption is completely off base.

I have a child with complex sn for whom I fought a two year long tribunal process for and won. I got ds into the school of my choice with a fantastic package of support. even when it was not the most obvious choice and it was a devil of a fight to prevent the LEA leaving him in the school he was in.

But I did it with my ducks in order. I had good legal help. Similarly we were arguing on a legal technically as to the right to the school I wanted. But we did so having point for point addressed all of the LEA's "concerns".

I've also helped a few friends. I'm great at picking holes and trying to find ways to plug them

I'm sorry if I haven't been as soft and fluffy as other posters on the board. frankly I would have rather seen you better prepared. Please please get some real world legal support, especially if you have any pretentions to doing anything other than applying for an ehc plan.

Hi Just looked at the LGO....

i was reading that if the LA provides new information on the day of the hearing.. then the hearing should have been stopped... so when the LA presented the information on the educational psychologist and about teh complaint... it was wrong and the hearing should have been stopped!!! am i getting this right???

toffeelatte.. sorry for the lash out... yes you are 100% correct.. i was not prepared for what happend at the hearing.. i thought that my argument was soild...from the documents that i recived from the LA i thought had a fair chance.. and was completely taken back by the info presented by LA esp about the educational psycholgist and the complaint that i emailed the night before... like i said since my dd got her diagnosis.. i always had help and support so i just assumed that the LA would be as nice and understanding..

i have always known i had little chance of winning infant class size.. but i think im more at shock at how the LA handeled this than the outcome...

Get a solicitor to look at it for you. Don't make judgements at 11th at night.

If you have understood it right, also ask the solicitor what they would expect the outcome of any adjournment to be.

One more thing. Your DD's head? Is this the head of the primary school you want?:is this the same head who put in a statement to the tribunal and advised against getting a ehc?

LGO is Local Government Ombudsman. The whole point of medical/social criteria is that there is provision for admittance of children who don't have EHCPs but do have SN (or medical conditions) needing a place at a school.

I'm not being fluffy. I'm using my experience of being a (former) appeals panellist. It is my view that once the panel is faced with a child for whom the current school is deemed to be the needed school by medical professionals, the ship that is 'should this cold have been here in the first place?' has sailed and the fact has to be taken as the starting point.

Likewise, had I been on the panel, I wouldn't have been impressed by evidence sought on the morning of the panel to justify the LA decision, because it is biased.

That said, as a parent whose DD goes to special school, I do agree with TLP that you should not delay applying for an EHCP,regardless of where your DD attends school.

No idea I'm shocked how bad it was.

It's not easy get ehcp and again you get that from local authority but different department.

Definatly report to lgo. .
speak to local counciller and mp you have nothing to lose mine has been so helpful and supportive and forwarded my emails to director or public services.

I'm baffled by your la behaviour they hone to abnormal efforts .

Could nursery keen her on next term give you longer fight ehcp and not uproot her. Surly educate phycologist should have observed your daughter and can't provide evidence so late.

Hope you get it sorted. Chin up keep fighting.

Nothing more dangerous than a mother scorned

Now worried about my appeal.

Please don't be it's not personal, it's just solicitors picking holes. LEA'S do not play clean, if they see a hole they will prod it

I still think if that's the heads attitude to SEN you have probably had a lucky escape.... but that seriously is just an opinion

Some soliciters have free consultation so worth a try.

I agree that the LA should not be using evidence sought on the morning of the hearing. I am also not convinced that the LA should have mentioned the complaint. The panel should, in my view, have excluded this information or, at the very least, asked you if you wanted the hearing adjourned to allow you to absorb the new evidence.

I am not impressed by the way the appeal panel questioned you. Some of those questions are fine. A few of them are, in my view, way out of order. Some of them suggest that the panel was attempting to substitute its own opinion of your child's condition for that of the medical professionals involved.

I agree with others that it would be a good idea to apply for an EHC Plan.

Bloody hell, Faz, it sounds as if your treatment had been terrible.
I cannot believe they though it reasonable or acceptable to bring up your house-buying circumstances. I guess they are thinking is long the lines that you were attempting a dodgy manouvre to get her into nursery and then the school, but the legal position is that it doesn't matter if she arrived at that nursery in a Martian spaceship, what matters is her need now for continuity .

Prh47 is a lawyer with long experience of the admissions system.

Toffee yes its the current head who wrote the email on friday morning to LA.. i told them that i didnt think it was fair to submit info that was related to a complaint i made.. and then i didnt want it to be submitted.. but the LA asked questions that would give the ans to the statement from the head..

but my concern is also... last year my dd got offered a place at the school nursery where she has now been allocated.. we went to meet with the SENCO at that time for one hour meeting i was present with her.. and also for the parents information meeting at the school.. but i was then offerd a place at the school which she is at now( closer to the house we had put an offer on) so i chose that(distance).

but the LA wrote to the 6 professionls saying that my dd had transitioned very well into the allocated school last year for nursry... when saw the letter (i was cc'd) i wrtoe to LA telling them it was inaccurate and LA brought it up again at the hearing.. i challenged her to where she got the info from, LA said the school provided and i said well its wrong why give out false info and LA told me to contact school under freedon of info act to find out.. now im worried what will the allocated school aswell as im sure they have been informed about the appeal...

I appreciate what you saying lougle but is it really as clear cut as that?

on the day of the appeal you would have been faced with expert opinion to say it was damaging but also the LEA saying it wouldn't. However unimpressed with the way it was brought before you, you would have presumably been look to work out where to lay the most weight.

At this point a solictor for the op would probably been arguing that the ed psychologist didn't know the ops dd very well and therefore there opinion shouldn't be lent much weight.

Alternatively you try and get an idea of what the ops dd was like and try to attribute weight that way. Probably the information would have been inconclusive because the op feels like she has been ripped to shreds and no one has really prepared her for communicating what you need from her.

I may be wrong but having been in a contentious tribunal (albeit from the other side) and from the ops account, that seems to have been the way the tribunal went.

Question arises whether the outcome would have been an different if the case had been adjourned. Chance to go in with a stronger position maybe. But also a chance for the LEA'S to strengthen theres.

i looked into the EHC... and since dd has a diagnosis..i can make a request myself without the schools involvement.. which i am going to do asap... like i said i was in la la land and i just had my bubble burst...

prh.. i didnt know that i could say anything when the LA was presenting her case.. it was only after her presentation that i asked why wasnt i told about edu psychologist in the previous days email and she said well we sought advise this morning... and then she presented the letter from head and then i told the clerk that i was told that my complaint is independt of the hearing..

our appeal finished at 415 and i got a call at 440 confirming that we had lost.. it really felt like all they had already decided on the outcome... esp since they didnt ask LA anything about why their "discretionary criteria".

and on top they also questioned the credibility of the parent support worker.. stating that she formed an opinion about my dds current school based on what i said to her instead her knowing what transitional facilities all the other schools can provide