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Original poster

Yr 1 reading/phonics

284 replies

RunsWithScissors · 20/05/2015 10:10

Hello,

DD (5.5) seems to be doing pretty well. Nearer the top end of reading in her class (on orange band, I know not stunning based on MN standards ;-) but she's moved up leaps and bounds from the beginning of the year.

The phonics test is this week, and her teacher caught me yesterday to say she doesn't think she'll pass it. I know it's for the school to see how she's doing, etc. she's moved her into a different phonics group to help her out.

I'd noticed she doesn't tend to sound things out much, I think she remembers words/word recognition?

I didn't learn phonics growing up, but can't recall the learning process of reading that I went through. I've always loved reading, as does DD.

So, my questions are:

Is the lack of ability/knowledge going to make it harder for her? She seems to be progressing really well with her reading, and has wonderful comprehension of what she reads. Very expressive when she reads a book for the first time, so I know she is understanding it. I'm just wondering if a better grasp of phonics would make it easier for her, or do some children naturally read in a different way?

Secondly, although her spelling is also progressing really well I do notice that some misspelled words reflect her speech (which we are having assessed) eg. 'Wiv' for 'with'. Her hearing test was fine last year, she has a great vocabulary and can explain things really well.

I am a bit confused tjough, as she seems to use sounding out to spell. Is this not a similar skill to reading by sounding out?

I know the school will do a great job to support her, and we are thrilled with her progress this year. I just want to ensure we are doing what we can to support her, and that we aren't missing out on things that might make it easier for her/be a more natural fit for her style of learning.

Thanks if you've read this far!

OP posts:
Baddz · 25/05/2015 16:11

This is interesting!
Just did some of ds2s homework with him and have has been given some sheets with real and alone words in to read.
I have to tick them if he gets them right.
He has no issue between reading the real words and the alien words.
I am hoping that's due to good phonics teaching!
Some examples of alien words he has been given are...
Poin
Dirst
Haim
it's obv - even to me - that it's ensuring they know the sounds
Oi
Ir
Ai

maizieD · 25/05/2015 16:30

I really do not understand why people should think that a 6 y old, however advanced a reader they are, will never encounter unfamiliar words.

Well done your ds2, Baddz Grin

mrz · 25/05/2015 16:37

It's estimated that an average six year old around has a vocabulary of around 10 000 words so it would be presumptuous of them to imagine that every word they read will be familiar.

The MW word of the day is callithump probably unfamiliar to most children but easily decoded

Micksy · 25/05/2015 20:18

Reading new words with no context is fairly alien, whether they are made up or not. Who would be best placed to read the word colonel in a story about the army, a "rounder" or a pure phonics reader? It isn't necessarily that a "rounder" can't sound out new words when context indicates it is needed. I also doubt that there is such a thing as a "pure phonics reader", only children who have been taught to read that way when prompted. I think it's much more likely that there are a number of useful strategies that we all use, and some of them act in conflict with each other. "Rounding" is one of these, and it's obviously much less useful in the screening check than it is in the normal course of reading.

mrz · 25/05/2015 20:30

I squeed as the callithump passed by my house. I noticed some people vaping outside.
Have you seen the latest listicle?
My friend is really interested in pharmacovigilance.
Don't you adorb it?
Did you like the choon?

Micksy · 25/05/2015 21:43

My daughter has just read, "The owl blinked its big round ees? Ayes? " She is very good at the phonics sounds she has been taught, but could sometimes do with making a good old contextual guess. I have no doubt at all that she will pass her phonics check very easily, but could do with the other strategies as well. Conversely, children who have those other strategies and use them in the screening check may do less well.
Nonsense words tend to be regular. Without going too Mashabell, our children also need strategies for the words which are not. These strategies then act in conflict during the phonics test.
I feel a little as though I am speaking to myself here, as none of the comments I am making are debated, people just repeat endlessly that new words are encountered all the time, a point which I have never argued against.

Micksy · 25/05/2015 21:58

By the way, I would totes read that as adore in your sentence above. I'd assume it was a typo, since adorbs is like, totally an adjective, not a verb, so I'd be like, typo, minger!

mrz · 25/05/2015 22:09

interesting you resorted to a dictionary and name calling ...

Feenie · 26/05/2015 00:11

By the way, I would totes read that as adore in your sentence above. I'd assume it was a typo, since adorbs is like, totally an adjective, not a verb, so I'd be like, typo, minger!

What a bizarre post! Confused

Tigsley2 · 26/05/2015 00:24

You do not need to 'read with phonics'.. please do not 'force' your child to read this way.. if she is 'reading and enjoying it'... don't make her jump through a pointless hoop.

IF phonics were essential for reading, the majority of teachers and teaching assistants who are literate - would not struggle with the correct use of the phonics programme.. I have met many staff who don't know how to sound out.. and don't sound out 'pure' phonics.. as they were not taught to read that way.. yet as I say - they are 'readers' .. some of whom have degree level education

Likewise I have taught level 3 readers who have failed the phonics test twice (e.g. once in year 1.. and once in year 2.. when they were forced to resit) .. hear me .. LEVEL 3 READERS.. fluent, comprehending bright kids - who 'don't do phonics'..

Micksy · 26/05/2015 01:10

For people who understand good reading so well, i predicted a greater sensitivity to voice. My apologies for completely unintended offence.

Micksy · 26/05/2015 01:17

Adorbs is a foreshortening of adorable, as in "that kitten was totes adorbs". It's very teen speak and I clumsily tried to emulate it, in intended good humor. The "minger" was there to indicate speaker immaturity, not because i intended to seriously insult anyone's personal grooming programme. Once more, apologies.

Feenie · 26/05/2015 01:57

Likewise I have taught level 3 readers who have failed the phonics test twice (e.g. once in year 1.. and once in year 2.. when they were forced to resit) .. hear me .. LEVEL 3 READERS.. fluent, comprehending bright kids - who 'don't do phonics'

Have you read the evidence that outweighs your anecdotal post, tigsley?

NoParking · 26/05/2015 08:05

Tigsley If we're talking anecdata, my Y1, level 3, free reader) whatever that means) dd1 got full marks in her phonics test. She is a fluent, expressive and comprehending reader and she uses her phonics for things like dinosaur names and is currently working out the phonics rules for the French words she is learning in ballet.

Mashabell · 26/05/2015 08:05

if she is 'reading and enjoying it'... don't make her jump through a pointless hoop.

The pointlessness of the phonics test is my main objection to it. It's meant to identify weak readers who need extra help.

  1. Not doing so until end of Yr1 is a bit late. They should be identified in YrR, and teachers invariably do.
  2. For clearly good readers it is totally pointless.

UK teachers are already ridiculously overworked and stressed out. Making them do another pointless thing is utterly silly.

mrz · 26/05/2015 08:37

The phonics check isnt to identify weak readers! They will be very obvious to everyone. What the check does is identify weaknesses and gaps in a child's ability to tackle unknown words using the most effective strategy we have -phonics!

It's so pointless that it follows a model widely used in effective tests used by SENCOs and Educational Psychologists. It picks up the "hidden" children who seem to be doing well early but suddenly struggle when they meet more complex texts and subject specific vocabulary around Y3/4.

I've administered the check since it was introduced and haven't seen a level 3 reader score less than 40/40 on the check.

Itshouldntmatter · 26/05/2015 09:39

My daughter is a really good reader for her age. I am not sure if she will pass her phonics test. She gets really frustrated sounding things out because she is a speed daemon. When I make her slow down, she will often get the word right, but she does struggle to break down longer words that are unfamiliar to her. I will be pleased if she passes because it will tell me she does have the basics, which I think are crucial when trying to tackle long new words if you are reading by yourself. If she fails, I think extra phonics will be good. My assumption is that such teaching could be applied to complex texts, but I would assume the phonics skills that she would be given are going to be really helpful. I didn't learn to read with phonics, but when we were having to spell words I was always told to sound it out. That made me want to scream with frustration because my point was always if I could sound it out I wouldn't have to ask how to spell it (and whilst there might not be a 1:1 ratio for sounds to letters, having some idea of what goes with what is better than nothing!). Now, after years and years of reading experience, I do sound out new words. I often get them wrong (dyslexia doesn't help), but I think if I had been taught phonics it would have made it easier. My dd doesn't always get it right using phonics, but at least she has some idea (when she slows down enough to think about it).

mrz · 26/05/2015 10:13

Why does she need to sound out? Good readers can decode accurately without having to say the sounds aloud. IMHE all the children in my school who've scored 40/40 since the check began read the words quickly and accurately without the obvious need to sound out loud. It's what good readers do automatically.

Itshouldntmatter · 26/05/2015 10:34

Mrz she gets frustrated with long words and tends to make it up, rather than break the words down into composite sounds. It is as though she can't see the composite bits, because she will often pick out letters but put them together in a random order (guess!). It is generally for very few words, and she has an extensive vocabulary and excellent comprehension. To be honest, given that she is reading beyond level 11, if she fails, i think she is perhaps one of those readers it is designed to pick up. I worry she is dyslexic (given the family history), so I hope she passes. Not that it will mean she always uses optimum reading methods because clearly she doesn't, but it would hopefully mean she has the basic understanding.

Itshouldntmatter · 26/05/2015 10:48

I guess most people would say I'm mad to worry about her being dyslexic, given her current reading ability, but it is exactly to poor phonics application to long novel words that worries me.

mrz · 26/05/2015 10:55

Has she been taught to blend the word syllable by syllable rather than as a whole word?

My "poorer" readers are quite happy to attempt words with 4 or 5 syllables where in the past I found many children plateaued when words got longer than 4 or 5 letters.

Itshouldntmatter · 26/05/2015 11:15

She has been taught to blend, but I know she also uses context to help. She does do it automatically for some words, but just not for all of them. I don't think her phonics knowledge is as automatic as it could/should? be. She has never been taught words by sight, but she always MUCH preferred the biff and chip stories to those in the Read Write Inc books (which I bought). So the majority of her early reading material wasn't phonics based.

Itshouldntmatter · 26/05/2015 11:28

She was encouraged to use contextual cues - not sure if that counts as being encouraged to do whole word reading.

mrz · 26/05/2015 11:29

Many children aren't taught to blend syllable by syllable so struggle when trying to blend words with more than one syllable. Once they learn how it really gives them lots of confidence
I would check how she approaches these words if she says every sound then she needs help

mrz · 26/05/2015 11:32

Context clues help with meaning and identify which homophone to choose but in general are an inefficient strategy for accurate reading