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Primary education

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Original poster

Yr 1 reading/phonics

284 replies

RunsWithScissors · 20/05/2015 10:10

Hello,

DD (5.5) seems to be doing pretty well. Nearer the top end of reading in her class (on orange band, I know not stunning based on MN standards ;-) but she's moved up leaps and bounds from the beginning of the year.

The phonics test is this week, and her teacher caught me yesterday to say she doesn't think she'll pass it. I know it's for the school to see how she's doing, etc. she's moved her into a different phonics group to help her out.

I'd noticed she doesn't tend to sound things out much, I think she remembers words/word recognition?

I didn't learn phonics growing up, but can't recall the learning process of reading that I went through. I've always loved reading, as does DD.

So, my questions are:

Is the lack of ability/knowledge going to make it harder for her? She seems to be progressing really well with her reading, and has wonderful comprehension of what she reads. Very expressive when she reads a book for the first time, so I know she is understanding it. I'm just wondering if a better grasp of phonics would make it easier for her, or do some children naturally read in a different way?

Secondly, although her spelling is also progressing really well I do notice that some misspelled words reflect her speech (which we are having assessed) eg. 'Wiv' for 'with'. Her hearing test was fine last year, she has a great vocabulary and can explain things really well.

I am a bit confused tjough, as she seems to use sounding out to spell. Is this not a similar skill to reading by sounding out?

I know the school will do a great job to support her, and we are thrilled with her progress this year. I just want to ensure we are doing what we can to support her, and that we aren't missing out on things that might make it easier for her/be a more natural fit for her style of learning.

Thanks if you've read this far!

OP posts:
mrz · 22/05/2015 16:18

Fast responding? Over nine hours later?

Please as in a plea not to believe an oft repeated but incorrect message that reading is in anyway a natural process. The OP has obviously been misled and repeating it as a statement of fact leads to the perpetuation of the myth.
Perhaps you would rather no one challenged misconceptions and just allowed them to spread?

mrz · 22/05/2015 16:19

No one suggested you had said anything about the teaching of phonics masha.

maizieD · 22/05/2015 17:00

But you did express exasperation at the suggestion that there may be other 'natural' ways to learn to read.

I have to throw up my hands, say 'It's a fair cop' and come quietly. I was, unforgivably it seems, a bit exasperated at seeing that misconception repeated yet again.

Phonics isn't the only method of reading.

You will probably find that 'good readers' who haven't been taught phonics have worked out for themselves that the letters represent sounds and that this knowledge can be used to work out unfamiliar words. Even if they tend to use familiar syllables as a basis for this rather than graphemes it is still using phonic knowledge.

I'd be fascinated if someone who disagrees with this, and who was taught by Look & Say, could explain to me just how they would work out what a written word which they have never seen before actually 'says'.

Itshouldntmatter · 22/05/2015 18:53

Honestly, I don't see why the sarcasm or attacking tones are necessary. I personally think that both of you have a lot of useful information for parents, but it is a shame that sometimes you seem to think attack is the best form of defence. In my opinion, it sometimes comes across in a rather bullying way.

Maizie - what I said originally was that I didn't think it was helpful to berate parents who are NOT teachers and do not have the same information at their disposal as you do. Obviously there are going to be a LOT of people with misinformation about the process of reading because the vast majority only have their own experience of learning as a basis for understanding. You tried to suggest you weren't berating, but you plainly were. My basic point was that parents who aren't experts on reading and who are just seeking advice don't deserve that.

Mrz - what is the point of throwing in a sarcastic comment about the fact that my reply was 9 hours after yours? I replied quickly on my phone, but irrespective it is just pointless. For it to have been a plea it would have to have been part of the same sentence as the plea itself. It wasn't. Please! is a sentence in itself. And, as Maizie has acknowledged, it wasn't written as a plea. I know you know this - you are a teacher. I in no way suggested that misconceptions shouldn't be challenged. But correcting them isn't the same as telling someone off for holding them. And I must be honest, I have never seen you deal well with someone disagreeing with you. Obviously I've not read everything you have ever posted, but I think it is a shame when you have a lot of interesting stuff to say.

Fundamentally, I think that both of you have a huge amount of useful information, and Maizie I've talked to you before and really enjoyed our interaction. But whilst you both might find the massive amount of misinformation that parents/people have frustrating, I do maintain that berating people for it isn't helpful.

mrz · 22/05/2015 19:23

Is responding to point out the inaccuracy of your post "Should say you are being (darn phone/fast responding)" sarcastic?

Sorry but from this side you seem to be the aggressive poster determined to offence where none intended.

mrz · 22/05/2015 19:24

And no I wasn't saying your reply was nine hours after mine ... Just the opposite in fact!

Itshouldntmatter · 22/05/2015 19:40

Really Mrz? How is suggesting that annoyance at someone who was just seeking help aggressive? Although I have never ever see you admit you are in the wrong for anything, so I'm not expecting it here.

Feenie · 22/05/2015 20:01

Lordy, let it go! You are coming across as someone with a personal axe to grind now, Itshouldntmatter. Drop it! You made your point.

Itshouldntmatter · 22/05/2015 20:05

Grin Feenie if Mrz had said that I would have said pot, kettle, black.

But I am in agreement with you that my point is made, and there is no need to continue what has become a bit of a 'you're wrong' 'no you're wrong'. We won't agree.

mrz · 22/05/2015 20:07

You're right

Itshouldntmatter · 22/05/2015 20:08

Ah, if only I thought you meant that Mrz Wink

mrz · 22/05/2015 20:11

Oh I do mean it ... We won't agree. I found your posts aggressive and you seem to find mine the same ... It's the limitations of an Internet forum

Feenie · 22/05/2015 20:14

Exactly! Peace out, ladies. Wine

Itshouldntmatter · 22/05/2015 20:16

In that case, I am glad we can agree.

Tapasfairy · 22/05/2015 21:52

My year one fails the screening test. They have mock tested and she failed.
She is a level 14 reader, with sat tested ( and passed) comprehension.

Phonics is not her first choice of reading. She can do, it but higher order skills always come first. Phonics irritate her. ( she never liked phonics)

It's a flawed test, it doesn't test good readers well. I wouldn't worry OP.

mrz · 22/05/2015 21:58

It's a well established effective method for identifying literacy difficulties used by Educational Psychologists for decades.

What does your daughter do when she meets unfamiliar words?

Tapasfairy · 23/05/2015 07:33

She will work them out from context, she has an incredible vocabulary. She will break them down and seems to use word groups or roots. Shape and start/end of words. If that doesn't help she will very reluctantly use phonics. ( she would rather you just told her the word, it then hits memory bank immediately)

Not all children learn to read with phonics, she taught herself, she has her own methods and she's years ahead so they do work. No, the methods wouldn't work for most children but for her they do. She is now reading year 5 key stage two books, well with comprehension.

It is a flawed test, it's well documented that advanced readers struggle with it. My dd class has three advanced readers (level 12 plus) they all keep failing the test!

mrz · 23/05/2015 08:06

Lucy is a ebullient, garrulous girl with many friends. She has beautiful titian hair that makes her instantly recognisable.

Does context help?

mrz · 23/05/2015 08:16

It isn't well documented that advanced readers struggle with the check. A few teachers complained that their "good readers" struggled with pseudo words ... a great excuse if parents are gullible but not one based in fact. It's comforting to cling to even though the evidence shows it untrue.
Good readers read accurately they don't assume that they know every word in the English language. The children who read strom as storm are the same children who would read sliver as silver or split as spilt ...they aren't accurate readers but readers who skip over or guess at unfamiliar words.

Baddz · 23/05/2015 08:24

My ds2 (6) is a good reader. He has always been very good at phonics (I take no responsibility for this! He loved alphablocks on TV :))
He doesn't find the made up words hard at all and has no difficulty with switching from real words to the made up words.
No idea when the phonics check is though, or even if they have already done it!
They seem happy with his progress and he is happy too.
My ds1 (11) however, would have been a whole other story! He found phonics very hard and tbh his spelling does still show that.
He is very bright and is doing well at secondary - he has achieved some level 7s in recent pieces of work - so please don't worry if she "fails" the check.
Ime it is really not indicative of future performance or ability.
(Gets ready to be flamed by teachers :))

maizieD · 23/05/2015 08:50

It is possible, Baddaz, that in the 5 year gap between DS1 & DS2 the teaching of phonics actaully changed in their school (change spurred on, possibly, by the introduction of the phonics check!) and it is now a bit more rigorous and logical. There has always been good and bad phonics teaching; the phonics check is exposing the latter...

I would totally endorse what mrz says about the myth that 'good readers' fail the phonics check.

mrz · 23/05/2015 08:56

Baddz I wish the check had been around when my eldest "good reader" had been in year 1 then his problems may have been picked up before secondary school.

Baddz · 23/05/2015 09:04

It wouldn't have made any difference to my eldest....even with an ed psych dx of severe dyslexia he got no extra help or support

if it's used as a tool to actually pinpoint the kids who need intervention then that's great but surely the teachers should already know who those kids are?
Although obv I am going back a few years and things have changed - the phonics teaching seems much more rigorous now and even very young children are given what I consider a lot of homework.
My 6 year old has:
Reading book
Spelling book (he has finished learning phonics but did have a phonics book too)
Maths - he is currently working on number facts of 7
Handwriting practice - he is currently doing cursive practise
I think that's a lot.
Certainly far more than ds1 ever did!

Baddz · 23/05/2015 09:05

I agree with Mrz too...I think ds2 will pass and he a good reader.

mrz · 23/05/2015 09:08

Since the check was introduced all our good readers have passed with ease.