Primary school place shortage in Crouch End September 2015

[cgehansen]

Hi, Has anyone been affected by the shortage of primary school places in Crouch End? We put the 6 closest schools to us by distance on our form which are Weston Park Primary, Rokesly Infant, Coleridge Primary, St Aidan's, Ashmount Primary and Campsbourne Infant. We've been turned down from all of them and instead have been offered a school in Wood Green which is a 48 minute walk away. I know of at least 5 others in the same situation.

I'm trying to get a group of us together to take this up with the Council so if you are in the same boat or know somebody else in this situation in Crouch End it would be great to hear from you. Only in large numbers can we make the Council take notice.

I can see why cgehansen wants to explore the merits of some kind of catchment based system; and I can also see why tiggy does not think they would help in London.

I would suggest that there are two seperate issues here:-

1.What improvements can be made to the current system?

and

1. Would a completely different system be better?

Under 1, improvements, I think there seems to be a general view emerging on the thread that a sharp restriction or even abolition of sibling preference would be a help. I would agree with that as a policy and its one worth pushing with the council as any system that facilitates deliberate "gaming" by way of shor term renting distorts the pattern of demand. So if, as is rumoured, there are short term renters whose real base is Wood Green but who rent beside Coleridge in the block of flats on Crouch End Hill, then the radius of Coleridge is indeed being reduced by non local parents doing this which makes demand in Crouch End look higher and demand in Wood Green look lower.

I would, controversially, go further with Church Schools.

It seems to me that if Church Schools were to be given the option of explaining very clearly what their ethos was, and the extent to which pupils would be expected to go along with it, then parents would be self selecting, and consequently admission to Church Schools could be done on the same basis as community schools - special needs, then distance. This would again avoid distortion of local demand, and mean that church attendence etc would cease to be part of admission, a feature of the system I really dislike. But perhaps thats just me.

I will leave proposing a different system to a later post, cos, while I am interested in that, I think its a bit academic at present.

"It seems to me that if Church Schools were to be given the option of explaining very clearly what their ethos was, and the extent to which pupils would be expected to go along with it, then parents would be self selecting"

Surely church schools do this already by means of their websites, prospectuses and prospective parents' tours? Certainly the Catholic schools are very up front about the extent of religious focus and practice in the schools, it can't come as a surprise to anyone.

I can't immediately find the St Gilda's or St Peter's prospectuses online, but this school takes plenty of kids from crouch end, and spells out pretty clearly what the deal is:
www.st-josephs.islington.sch.uk/catholic-life/

Indeed. And most, if not all Church Schools, do I am sure, make this effort already

BUT

My point was that many of them also impose the requirement that preference be given to children for whom the relevant denominational allegiance can be demonstrated, for example by church attendence, sometimes at a specified church. I would like to see all such requirements abolished.

So, for example St Joseph's states:-

"As a Catholic school, you will see that our admissions criteria prioritise children from practising Catholic families. As such, we require evidence of regular attendance at Mass, and being known to your priest. I would recommend that you discuss the priest’s reference with your parish priest, or the priest of the church you normally attend, at an early stage. Unfortunately without a priest’s reference your child will not fall within categories 2 to 5 of our admissions criteria. St Joseph’s is a popular school and we normally have to apply our oversubscription criteria."

nlondondad, but I thought what you were saying is that IF faith schools were upfront about their ethos and religious practice, that that would put people off from applying who were not of that faith, and hence reduce the polarity in the local educational demand?

I'm not sure that's true of Catholic schools, in the main people realise exactly what they are signing up for, and it's not an easy religion to fake, for want of a better word. It might be more of an issue for desirable CoE schools, perhaps?

Though there are plenty of faith schools in the north London area which are not massively oversubscribed with people of that faith (St Joseph's being one of them, St John's UPper Holloway another), but which are not seen as 'fashionable' and hence not particularly appealing to people who are hellbent on getting their dc into one or two particularly sought-after schools. Which brings us back full circle...

I think what I'm saying is that sought-after faith schools are ultimately part of the exactly the same dynamic as the renting next door to Coleridge or EP strategy. The specific hoops may be different, but the underlying process is the same.

In the west of Haringey church schools are the only schools where places have been 'allocated' ie offered to children whose parents didn't actually choose them. I agree with nlondondad it's not right that access to a state school place should be determined by religion. I also don't think it's right that children not applying for a church place at a school should be expected to take part in a religious assembly. Often the distance based intake at c of e schools is above 50% and many people have no choice except to take a place at a c of e school. I have no issue with the churches supporting education but it would be fairer and more appropriate for the kids if religious observance was kept out of school time. I know all state schools have a collective worship requirement but that's only very loosely followed in most state schools.

What's the Ofsted rating of those schools where children were allocated though? I would guess that has a significant impact on whether a school is undersubscribed or not. As will parental perception of the school based on past Ofsted gradings/results.

All rated good as far as I know which suggests people prefer the non church schools and get allocated the church ones because of a lack of places elsewhere. The concern I have with religious observance at church schools is many people don't have a choice of school and end up at a church school because it's the only place they can get. The c of e schools often say the religious element is low key and inclusive which makes me wonder why they insist on it at all. Religious worship is not something that would put me off a school on it's own but I'd prefer if it wasn't there. But I do know some parents who've not taken a place at their local school because it's a church school and they aren't religious and it doesn't seem fair to me that they've been put in that position.

On a quick tally up it looks like there are 450 primary school places available in the Crouch End area of which 150 are religiously orientated. The latest poll data shows that only 10% of the country are regular churchgoers. However, Crouch End is hardly Bible Belt territory and being London must be significantly more religiously diverse than the UK average. So the real number of regular Christian worshippers is probably closer to 5% here.

Rather than rent a property near the school the majority of religious school applicants must instead "rent" a place on a church bench for a couple of years. Just a different hoop as was mentioned earlier.

I know that pupils of other denominations are welcome at some religious schools. And a I know that you don't need to be a fully committed Christian to acclimatise to these schools. But if there were abundant places available at non religious schools how many of those who currently attend religious ones would still actively choose to attend them? 33% or 5%?

The modern population demographics seem totally mis-weighted to the school choices available. It either excludes or seriously compromises the beliefs of many and actually probably does more damage to the catchment zones of non religious schools than the short-term renter problem.

Three of our six nearest primary schools are religiously selective (while being state funded ). This cuts down our feasible local primary options from six to three . We are not a religious family and I refuse to go along every week to church to sign the register and pretend.
The three selective religious schools are very very unlikely to accept my DC so as places for the non religious are allocated on distance actually we only realistically have three 'choices' of primaries nearest us.

Clearly the education or at least admissions system needs a complete overhaul. Changing the criteria not to include siblings amongst other things is just treating symptoms as opposed to the real problem. Yes it might help slightly but the issues will still be there. People will just either rent for a longer period or rent closer to a school several times each time they need to apply for a child. Or those that can afford will buy close to the schools if they cannot get around the rules by renting. Surely rules cannot be tightened so much the council is forced to police people's movements. They are not the gestapo. It is not a police state. Well not yet. Changing these rules is surely also not fair for the people who might have a child in a school but then cannot get their other children in if the catchment shrinks drastically as it does in some cases and they are them out of it?
I am from Scandinavia where as well as other places in Europe you simply do not have these issues. Well of course there is not the obsession of class and elites and nepotism which exists in the UK and filters through to education. This is to me the real problem. When where you go to school is an indicator of your chances to climb or stay on the social ladder people who cannot afford private schools will do anything to hold unto this privilege real or perceived. It is in reality capitalism after all. Survival of the fittest. Or human nature if you see it that way.
I only realized the madness of the situation because I had a child about to start school. I found myself in a situation where the only good schools around me where religious schools. So my options were to start going to church or move. This in itself is deeply wrong. I pay taxes, these taxes are used to fund religious schools. So if my taxes can fund them why can my children not attend? Or at least without me having to be deceitful. I have friends who were given boxes with envelopes marked with serial numbers so their attendance and donations could be tracked in Catholic Church. Others who had to sign in and out before and after service to ensure they did not just turn up sign and leave. I even knew someone who attended both Catholics and C of E masses to hedge her bets so she would be covered on all bases when the time came. Quite frankly this is sick and should not be happening in a democratic first world country. The churches are happy to play along. They get money and bums on seats. I feel all public funded schools should be fully open to anyone which will reduce the pressure for those who won't or can't find other alternatives. Surely this will have a better impact than changing sibling priorities.
The reason why things are so dire without much change is probably because the only time the situation really affects people is when they need to get their first child into school. They then if they are unlucky to not be in catchment of a school they are happy with get mad but end up either accepting their fate or fighting for a solution and once they get that they no longer have the need to try to change things. Again human nature I guess. Apart from the few good ones that want to change the situation for others.
Sorry about the long post and if it is incoherent it is because it is past midnight where I am. Good night!

Agreed maidename

The church could support education without making religion an admissions criteria for entry to a school and without expecting religious observance in school. Given people often don't have a choice of school it doesn't feel right to me that children are expected to take part in religious ceremonies e.g. hymns and prayers at church schools when they may not come from a religious background. Our local church school says on it's website "the Governing Body hopes that all pupils will take part in the Christian worship of the school". The trouble is they are the only local school that the council has expanded in recent years and over half the admissions are for non-church places. So the expectation of taking part in Christian worship doesn't seem right to. I happen not to be religious but if I were Christian I would feel the same way.

Tiggytape while I do not want to diminish what the churches did at the time, free compulsory education was introduced at the end of the nineteenth century. We are now in the 21st century and the modern day society is nothing like it was then. A lot of the other aspects of the society have been changed/modernised. the education system is simply languishing under being a mishmash of several systems rather than a coherent strategically thought out efficient system. This has been possible in other European countries and should be here too.
My neighbors where I lived before went to see the priest of the Catholic Church and the first thing he said to them when he saw they had a young child was 'you know you are not in the right diocese to get into a school? When they told him that is not why they were there(obviously not the truth) his second question was if they wanted to set up a direct debit for their weekly contributions. When they then said they would rather pay when they attended mass they were the ones that got the box with marked envelopes. Someone else asked the priest in the c of e church how they decided who to give recommendations he told her those who attended regularly - fair enough - but also those who attended the other activities, Sunday school, and community groups and volunteered and contributed financially to the church. That I am afraid is the churches playing along. It is again survival. Can we blame them? Maybe not. But it is the system that is wrong.
In crouch end there are so called black holes. Somebody else I know who is in one of these nearer muswell hill is now attending church and going to playgroups at a church in muswell hill in the hope that she will be able to secure one of the few places (seven recently) at its school left over after siblings have been given spaces. Maybe because I was brought up by atheists I was not able to bring myself to do all this. and since I was not even sure I would get into the one state school I was in catchment for I had no choice but to move. There were lots of catholic schools where I lived but some of them have rules that say you have to be baptized before six months? Yes there are some places allocated to non religious people but you still have the same problem if you don't live close enough to the schools. This as far as I am concerned is discrimination based on my religion or lack of it. And it gives an unfair advantage to those who can choose between the religious and non religious schools. They get allocated the same amount of money per child that any state school does so I think every child should have an equal right to apply to them.

I agree 100% the system is a complete mishmash. Other European countries can manage a coherent and high quality education system and it doesn't make sense that we can't have that here. Instead of a consistent and coordinated system we have free schools, academies, community schools, church schools etc all offering something different with the premise that parents have a 'choice' which in reality rarely exists. Plus we have the perceived issue of 'class'. Where I live there's a certain type of parent who will do everything they can to get into one specific school which is not better or worse than any other school in the area. It just has the 'right' kind of families sending their kids there.

Going back to the original point of this thread Haringey are now predicting a surplus of 27 reception places this year in Crouch End, Stroud Green, and Highgate (instead of a shortfall of 1fe). Given every community school in the area has a long waiting list this does seem a bit baffling. Maybe a large number of kids aren't going to turn up in September?

cge how do they account for the surplus? Does WPS opening contribute?

The surplus of 27 is only for Haringey schools. WPS does have an impact in that it has taken a small number of children from the area. They are predicting a surplus of 78 places next year. The predictions are based in part on GLA data on birth rates. I struggle to see where all these places will materialise from given the length of the waiting lists this year and the fact that the offer distances don't overlap between schools in many cases. I did ask the council about the 2015 predictions and they said it's based on their estimate of the number of children not turning up at the start of term. It does seem a bit odd though given that last year their future predictions were for a shortfall year on year.

Sorry - haven't read the whole thread but thought this might useful to some...
I happen to call Haringey Admissions today to ask about waiting lists and was told that due to an upgrade in their computer system there is no longer any waiting lists.
If you want to remain on the waiting list for your preferred school you need to do an in-year application. New waiting lists will be published on 14th September. Apparently they have sent out a letter - did anyone get one? I haven't!

We've just had the letter. All the waiting lists in Haringey have ended and you now need to make an in-year application with no places offered or waiting list positions given before 14th September.

@CGEhansen,

The explanation for Haringey now saying that they have a surplus of 27 places in the area, but local schools still having waiting lists, and the admission circles for schools not overlapping is that:-

1. They give the surplus figure because they now have a clearer idea of how many people who were applicants in January 2015 are no longer interested in a place in this area. They may have moved out, or accepted a place at a private school. It does not need all that many people to have done that to produce a situation whereby the total number of children looking for places in September 2015 reception is now known to be 27 less than the number of places available. Whereas on offer day it looked like 30 more than the number of places available. This figure, if correct, confirms the trend over the last three years to the effect that the total number of reception age children in this area has actually been falling slowly.

1. The waiting lists are not a good guide to demand as people can be, and if they have any sense are, on all the waiting lists for all the schools they could get to, if they dont have a firm offer of a place yet at a school they want.. Once someone gets an acceptable place, well then they drop off all the waiting lists as well. Which is why normally just before term and in the first week of term there can be a LOT of movement on waiting lists.

1. The radius of admission is the furthest away a child was offered from a particular school, on distance only, ON OFFER DAY. Later offers are, in general made from further away.

This years requirement, in Haringey, that people re register their interest in a place as an in year application, while yet another fag for people, could be helpful, as it ought to clear out the "dead wood" from the lists, earlier than otherwise.

There will also, maddeningly, be cases of children, who have been offered and accepted a place at an "in demand" school, who will simply not show on the first day of term..