Year 5 Boy - disastrous parents evening - Help!

[fleurdelacourt]

So ds is 10 and ALL the parents evenings from Nursery - year 4 went really well. Bright boy, perfectionist traits which he needs to overcome but natural mathematician, popular, happy etc.

And then, with no prior warning, the year 5 parents evening was a shocker. He hands no homework in, he is very moody and often believes he can't do the work, he panics under pressure. The maths teacher (having been v complimentary earlier in the year) basically suggested that he might struggle to pass any entrance exams.

While I remain appalled at the way the school have communicated this, I need to try and deal with it now. Without scaring ds even further.

Anyone got any tips for building confidence? I'm thinking a small amount of mental maths every day? Anything else I could do?

He does do his homework when it comes home so clearly I need to make sure it always comes home and is always handed in.

I would be having a word with the games teacher. Leaving out only 3 boys from matches & the associated social tea/coach trip is not on. At least they could be rotated in as subs. At primary age games should be inclusive and fun for all, setting up a healthy foundation for life.

Giving up cricket, on the verge of giving up piano - can these not be turned into persevere, learn a new piece and then you get to go on a screen ? It just sounds as if the perfectionist tendencies are being allowed to hold sway. I do appreciate it's hard.

I realise he needs to take some responsibility but he is a 10 year old boy - surely they're not the most reliable anyway?

Mine is not perfect, but he is generally reliable and he will tell me if he has forgotten anything.

Regarding confidence and taking up new stuff.

You should look at how he is praised and rewarded. Has he always been praised for being good and take personal satisfaction from it? This may be the reason he is struggling with not being the best anymore.

He should be praised for being able to tackle difficult things, learning from mistakes, enjoying the process rather than the result.

I found it somewhat weird that you called it "a disastrous parent evening". It wasn't. It went well.
Except you didn't hear the usual praise on your child.
I'd have put as title that my boy was struggling at school, not that the evening had been a disaster.
That to me, sorry, tells me that your approach comes from the wrong perspective. You seem to want achievement and that passes on to him.

I learnt about this at a post grad teaching qualification, but younger students can suffer from similar problems. And I have been doing my best for my son to see effort and errors as a way to success.

games teacher - don't get me started! I'm just relieved that he is firmly in the B team for football - some boys are routinely left out of both. he's not prepared to countenance anything other than aiming to win.

piano - I do encourage him. but he also plays the clarinet and I wonder if he should just choose one of them and really go for it? at least clarinet might be sociable later on?

Realise that reliability needs to be worked on. But I think it's part of a bigger picture. he's not bringing work home because he feels he's rubbish at it anyway so why try?

rather amusingly - he had to prepare the pro side of the debate argument "Homework should be abolished"! - he felt he argued his case well and was fairly philosophical about not winning.....

Lweji - sorry I take exception to what you have said.

I said 'disastrous parents evening' just because it came so out of the blue. It didn't go well at all - he was criticised on every front and with no prior warning. The communication style of the 2 teachers was poor.

I want him to be happy and achieve his potential. I am approaching this as a concerned parent of a bright boy whose self esteem is very low. Your implication that I am a pushy mum is very far wide of the mark.

I am fully aware of how he should be praised - we have been using descriptive praise on him for the last 2-3 years. He is fully aware that having a go is important - it just doesn't come naturally.

OP, I get it completely. My DS pushes himself enough - his drive comes from him entirely, I just try and support and cushion it.

For example, he was begging to play the piano. Then he wanted to go for his Grade 1 (and get a better grade than his friend). He sobbed through the lessons, refused to quit, or put off the grade by a term, despite my dh and I, and his teacher, having chats with him. He got a high Distiction. He was quietly pleased, but didn't breathe a word to his friend, or anyone else. Same with swimming. And tennis. And even times table tests. If he doesn't achieve what he feels he should, he feels as though he has failed.

Looking back, I think he was the same from birth. He spent weeks screaming with frustration because he wanted to crawl, but couldn't. Then we had a 48 hour tantrum (and I mean 48 hours, only pausing for food and sleep) because he drawing of a fireman didn't actually look like a real fireman. Think he was 2.

School has changed his life, because he has such a varied mix of friends, most of whom do not compete with him, and just love him for being himself.

OP, where are you looking for secondary? Would you consider a good, but less alpha, state school?

You may want to read this Why telling kids they are smart makes them act dumb

Moving to a less alpha school or class solves nothing. They will encounter other competitive environments and then they may be too old to change how they deal with it.

One other way is to show them how we deal with failure. Work with them at processing a difficult task. Maybe a new difficult game, puzzle, problem, etc

That's a good link Lweji.

I do think the OP does need to think very carefully about schools though. There are some schools, especially in the independent sector, that are very much take the view that success = achievement. I assume that's what sunny means by alpha school. It's going to undermine any work on learning to deal with failure if the message he's getting from school on a daily basis is that the only important thing is achieving as highly as possible. I don't think those schools are always a good fit for the children who will push themselves to breaking point and will see themselves as a failure if they don't achieve well.

I think I've read that before. I am certainly aware of it, and have been very careful with praise.

I think it does matter how the school handle things, though. I have friends with children at prep school that test and then rank the children each week. The school encourages competition in every area, and so this will knock children who actually care about winning. It is all very well handling it at home, but if school come at it from a different angle, it is better to be at a less alpha school.

The link is interesting - descriptive praise is very similar: praising the child for the way they have approached something rather than for the end result. That is how we try to operate at home. But school is very different - and that seems to be the problem. The alpha males have successfully squashed all the confidence out of him.

I do think a less alpha secondary school is the way to go - he might be happier to experiment if he's not always going to be shouted down.

obviously competition is everywhere but surely the school has to match the child?

I have taken a lot of useful action points from this thread which will give me and him some strategies to work with. Thanks all!

The anxiety your DS is experiencing is the stand out message I get from the original post; it sounds as though everything is enormously hard work for your DS at the moment .

In terms of building his self-esteem re: school work, having a look at some of the low threshold, high ceiling tasks on the nrich website might be a good starting point. Something like 'magic v' (look through the posters) which has lots of different answers so could be a ' quick win' but can be extended/twisted in umpteen ways if the interest is there. It may help your DS to experience maths where there isn't a single correct answer but an emphasis on trying things out. Another suggestion would be to invest in 24 Game cards (single digit) and for the two of you to learn the strategies and play the game cooperatively i.e. join forces to solve the puzzle then see if there's more than one way to do so. Using whiteboards to support working out is useful for some children as there's no permanent record of their 'error'. This could develop into playing against one another, against the clock, trying to beat a personal best, anything that helps him to enjoy playing with numbers.

Creative writing is tricky for perfectionists but maybe DS would enjoy using Myst Exile to write descriptions? Have a look at the Tim Rylands stuff about how he uses it. Another idea is to use Rory Story Cubes to give ingredients for use in a a story or as sentence starters-use them to create oral stories rather than written ones so 'mistakes' aren't so tangible.

I'd speak to his piano teacher, explain the anxiety and ask him/her to back-pedal, to teach DS some pieces he will definitely succeed at before moving to play a slightly harder version e.g. a favourite song in C major but later working on it in D major. Likewise with the clarinet-enjoyment and consolidation over new learning at the moment so he isn't being disabled by his anxiety but is taught different ways to manage it.
And ask for a CAMHS referral!

Some of the issues discussed in the post suggest problems with 'working memory'.I have had similar issues with one of my children.Is there an Sen teacher at your school who can help him and maybe do an initial assessment?
Working memory is entirely independent of IQ but can affect organisation skills,concentration and my dc3 is particularly affected in English - spelling and essays are extremely difficult for him.The estimate is that 10% of kids in the UK have issues with working memory.These kids are often labeled as lazy or could-try-harder in classroom situations.

Sounds very similar to the parent consultation we just had for our Y5 DS. He's clever, but a sensitive soul rather than an alpha, and while I expect to hear that he does a fair bit of day dreaming and is slow to get going, I didn't expect the wholesale condemnation of my lovely boy that it felt like! Am confused because I like and respect his teacher, and I am trying to work out where this has come from. Like your DS mine is a bit of a perfectionist and somewhat inclined to conclude that his attempts are rubbish if they're not perfect the first time. He is convinced he's bad at maths (he isn't), and at writing (he's so articulate, thoughtful and creative, he'd write beautifully if he could remember to put in any punctuation and would just get on with writing instead of worrying about it). I think he's also realising that as he isn't a macho, football-playing boy he has to carve out his own identity and embrace who he is. He's good at that and is confident about being different, but maybe he's labouring the point too much and needs to just buckle down and blend in. He wants to be a performer and apparently he only comes alive when they do drama or dance. The teacher was so damning, questioned his bedtime because he 'seems tired all the time' (he isn't - goes to bed at 8.15pm) and asked if he was having too much screentime (he has some, but less than his peers because he's busy with his drama and dance). My own view is that he's a bit lazy, a bit bored by school, and yes, he does need to try harder and make himself do things he doesn't necessarily enjoy, but he's just a small boy who's only just turned ten. I felt really depressed by the encounter, and as if the teacher was implying that my parenting has been lax, and although I am not usually an insecure person I felt quite shaken that the school doesn't see what I see - a kind, polite, perceptive and considerate boy who is very curious about the world he lives in, about people, ideas, values, beliefs, feelings and so on. They just see a bright boy not currently achieving his academic potential and that seems to be all they want to talk about.

Fleur, I do feel for you and even more for him reading your posts brought back a lot of feelings which is why I want to share this with you. I do agree that year five is a tough year and your school might usefully have contacted you sooner.

Many years ago I was told that one of my DS would be better off in a 'more ordinary school' because he 'wasn't like' his older brother. I was told, by a teacher I trusted, that he was not engaging or trying even in maths and history (also his favourites) and might not get into any of the grammar schools alone so although his brother's school would probably make space for him it would be in a low status 'siblings' class. It was suggested that, despite good NVR and VR scores he would not be able to cope. I think I KNOW how you feel. He was tearful and felt unpopular despite having friends. He was left out of the rugby team and then began the 'if I didn't try then I didn't fail' philosophy of self destruction. I cried and worried I asked the teaching staff what to do - they couldn't seem to help. All except one, she was his form tutor and bless her she took the time to chat with him and make him feel liked. I repaid her by making myself available to help in school.

But that wasn't all I did. I got in touch with the high schools got sample papers and began to give him exam practice at home, very carefully presenting this as just what everyone does in the run up to exams. We would go over the papers and sort out problems and laugh so much by the end. We started by just doing timed individual questions. I spoke to a tutor friend and she recommended some books so we used those too. His dad got involved and his brother was so attracted by the fun he started doing his homework at the kitchen table as well helping where he could. I persuaded my younger son to take several tests and he did fine.

He went to his brother's school where the teachers were well aware of his worries and it didn't phase them at all. He succeeded in an academic environment a more or less all the way. He went to a very top echelon university with 4 a at a level. Oh and I retrained as a teacher. So please also believe me when I say that we have to err on the side of caution, however I think, from what you say, this does sound a bit like 'warning'; just as I was warned so many years ago. You can fix this. There is no earthly reason why it should not turn out as well for your ds. Education is a long game but looking back over my teaching career and in my own experience timed, fun exam practice which you then correct and improve works wonders. Children need to feel familiar with the precise conditions of a task to do their best at it.

I have just read this back and hope you do not think I am speaking out of turn. It is just that I stumbled on your thread and think I may have stood in your shoes. I wish you, and also him, all the luck in the. World
Alicatte

All the luck in the world!

Sorry this iPad has a mind of its own.

Maybe he is in a very competitive environment/school and it doesn't suit his personality. Some independent school put a lot pressure on the kids and parents specially when they are close to exams.

Cranial ostheopathy helps with anxiety and may help him to feel more relaxed

I feel for you; he is a sensitive soul and his current school doesn't seem to be doing anything to help. Being at the bottom of everything is not good for anybody's confidence. Pastoral care doesn't seem to be very good at that school; it looks as they just transferred you the problem and it is a shame they just told you now when he is in year 5.

Just a massive thank you to everyone who has contributed to this. I really appreciate the personal stories and the advice. It is reassuring to know that ds is not alone.

It's so frustrating that despite strong VR/NVR/CAT scores, he is being written off by the school. It is frustrating that they tell me this so late in the day. It is devastating that my kind, thoughtful, gentle ds is being labelled in this way.

I have been spending time one to one with him each day trying to rebuild his confidence slowly. He is very black and white and despite being in the top set for maths, because he is not acing everything, interprets that as being 'bad' at maths.

So we have been gently working our way through some sample papers/bond books - just 20 minutes or so a day. It's now clear that when he hasn't understood something in class, he has not communicated that. I am deliberately including some questions that I know he is confident with (symmetry being is favourite!?) so that reviewing his work is a positive exercise.

Secondary school is just a huge dilemma. I don't want to sell him short but I don't want him to feel under pressure either during or after the 11+ process.

I can understand the pressures of choosing a secondary school and getting it right. I really recommend taking him with you to look round some of the key school choices and getting a feeling for where he wants to be.

He may end up at the selective school or at a 'more ordinary state school' (that did make me laugh) but as long as he finds an environment where he feels supported he will thrive. Clearly the school he is at now have no concept of how to do that.

I was hesitating taking him on the school open days just because I don't want him to fixate on a school and then not get in.

We have looked round 2 schools - one is bigger and possibly more academic, the other more local and smaller. There is also a third option which has no entrance test. I guess what I need to work out is whether the bigger school would be able to cater for quieter boys as well as the chest thumping alpha males that he finds so intimidating!

I teach in a bigger school now and the advantage is that there are far more students to select your friends from and also far more structure in place pastorally (compared to the small schools I have worked in). With a smaller school, you run the risk of not finding like minded people to form friendships with.

You know your son best and what would cause stress, but I would involve him in the open days and the discussions. He may choose the low risk non selective route or he may wish to take entrance exams and take a risk. But at least you would know what the 'feel' he gets of a place is and that he knows the choices he has.

I'm appalled that the teacher left it this late to tell you - it's nearly April fgs!

re. the teacher taking the historical subject off the planner, I am genuinely appalled.

I'd be speaking to the HT and asking for some answers.

I think you have to involve him in choosing a secondary - just be realistic. I looked round the most academic school myself in Year 5, and took DS to the other schools. We both went round all of the schools is Year 6.

What was interesting, was that I could tell from his body language which school he felt most comfortable in. Although he sat the secondary transfer tests and did very well, he made the choice himself not to pick the most academic school. Seeing him at the open evening, I think he made the right choice - he was very more relaxed and engaged at the school he chose.

I have to say again, I think your prep school is doing him no favours at all.

dd was very like this. I put her in a junior school where, unless there was a problem, there was an automatic transfer to the senior school. I am sure that many schools operate on this basis. It did not mean that I was committed to her going to the attached senior school but it did mean that it took at lot of stress off the entrance exam process. She had a place at a school she loved so was less worried. I would consider whether a move now would help. Quite a few children moved into the dcs schools for the start of Yr 6 for this very reason.

She was also like a rabbit in headlights for maths for a while so my dad tutored her at the weekend. It was a fun thing for both of them. I made it clear to her that I had no problem with her ability and it was nothing to do with that. It was to make her feel confident.

Much as I might like a super academic school for her, I chose one that focuses a little less on the alpha student and rather more on the individual child whatever their strengths.

I also made it clear to her what was expected of her at school. She always handed in homework but was very disorganised. She was given easy targets and was aware that the school were communicating with me about whether they were met.

I completely agree that the current prep school are doing him no favours at all and, when he does move schools, I predict you'll see a huge change.

How dare they be so complacent!