Worth trying for Level 6 maths?

[redskybynight]

DS in Year 6 is currently working at 5a in maths. Just before half term he was given a Level 6 SATS paper in which he scored 20 out of 50 (32 required for a Level 6). however, up to that point he'd had very little Level 6 teaching.

School have (unhelpfully) said it is up to him whether he wants to take the real Level 6 paper in May. Regardless they are, and will keep doing, more teaching of Level 6 material to their most able children.

DS is the sort of child who likes to do the minimum and needs constant pushing so is not keen to do the Level 6. He also has a tendency to believe that he is rubbish at everything, so putting him in for a paper where he is by no means guaranteed to "pass" is a bit of a worry.

Question is - is it worth pushing him to do it (with a view based on his current assessment that he may well not achieve Level 6)? Or is it better to suggest that he doesn't worry about it and just "banks" his Level 5.?

If it makes a difference, the secondary school he is going to only sets "roughly" in KS3 and this won't have any effect on any potential set he is put in.

My DD was given the option, we said no - there is enough stressing about sats without the added stress of another paper when (as with our secondary) there was no "advantage" to DD, just the primary school.

DS was told last week that he'll be doing it. He wasn't given an option. The school choose the dcs who they think will make a go of it. He has been having extra lessons to prepare.
DS is quite laid back lazy so isn't that keen but isn't stressing about it. I'm taking the 'just try your best' approach. As you say once they get to high school it doesn't mean much.

I think the school has done the right thing by giving him the choice rather than putting pressure on him.

Ask him! If he wants to try for a bit of extra challenge then go for it. There shouldn't really be be any stress or pressure; not from you and not from the school.

Secondary schools do their own assessments pretty early on in y7 anyway.

My DS says he enjoyed his Sats because, as soon as we told him it was really a measure of his school and not of him, he relaxed into them and viewed them as a bit of a quiz. A change from the daily routine. We also ignored the extra lessons & the Sats breakfasts; there was enough practice in class and homework!

DS doesn't do extra challenge. left to himself he would never do anything that was even slightly out of his comfort zone. Hence it's up to me and his dad to encourage him to do it if he is going to ... hence the question - is this overly pushy or sensible encouragement.

DD loved the challenge. DS doesn't care about the result, he just loves math anyway. Your school sounds good, they will probably gently encourage him to have a go & that will swing it. I have other battles to fight so wouldn't push hard if it were my kids, but always applaud them for aiming high, if they want.

It won't do them any harm to see the Level 6 material, if they are being given extra lessons, as they will be doing the topics again at high school and things are often easier second time round.

I know the SATS results are far from the be all and end all but at high school we use them to set the students for Maths (along with other factors) and the majority of Set 1 achieved Level 6.

I wished we had the choice not to enter DS. He had massively ahead all the way through primary, made to do level 6 paper but the school didn't cover enough of it and so the only kids who passed were those who got tutors / whose parents coached them through it with masses extra work. We didn't want to do loads practice papers etc as DS had already got into private school on scholarship and bursary so no benefit to him & he'd had to do extra tests for private schools. Besides SATS supposed to reflect the teaching at the school not the home! He wasn't too bothered about not passing but was put out other children did when he had always been far ahead of them in maths. It made no difference at secondary at all in fact many schools prefer a solid level 5 and leave level 6 to them so children don't come in having been badly taught or bored at having to do it all over again.
DS is still top set for maths and considered a natural mathematician in his new school so its not had any negative impact for him in terms setting etc.
Its fine to say just have a go but then the competitive parenting kicks in and before you know it children who are not passing the practice papers are being hot housed at home and your child will fall behind if you don't do that too!
By all means do the level 6 work but I'd pass on the exam because its not a nice feeling to feel you have failed and I'm annoyed not passing took the shine off DS achievements at primary.

My dses have both gone for it. Ds1 last year did really well and ds2 has been put In for it this year. We weren't given a choice, the school identified them as being able to possibly achieve level 6 and that was that.

Ds1 embraced the challenge, he is very bright and maths comes very naturally to him. He missed out on a full score by 1 mark apparently! We did nothing at home at all, the school had extra booster lessons for 30 minutes before school at all levels which he attended and now ds2 does the same. If either were miserable and struggling I would have intervened but like ds1, ds2 seems to be relishing the challenge.

It's not like he'll get a certificate for it. SATs are mostly for statistics, anyhow, so I wouldn't pressurise him to do anything that he wouldn't benefit from.

Hello redsky:

I thought I'd write about what advantage achieving Level 6 has had for DD1 now in Y7 at a school that only teaches mathematics in mixed ability during the entirety of KS3.

Achieving Level 6 means that her end of targets/ end of Key Stage targets are very high indeed (currently end of Year target is 7c and end of Key Stage 3 target in NC L8*+ territory - my understanding is the school levels don't go beyond this but in school testing at end KS3 (there is no national SATs test end KS3 now) will spot achievment beyond Level 8).

DD1's school did not in any serious or concerted way teach content for the NC L6 test. There view throughout all but Year 6 was that they were "only required to teach to NC L4" and NC L5 was a "very high level of achievement".

Remember that the senior school's VA score is linked to your child's KS2 SATs achievement (that's the official figure the secondary school HAS TO work from). So the benchmark Nc L4 at end Ks2 goes on to NC L5/6 end of KS3 (1 - 2 NC levels improvement on KS2 results).

I can't find any definitive governmental statement on equating Nc levels to GCSE results - but this discussion of TES (community.tes.co.uk/tes_assessment/f/82/t/344140.aspx) seems to have the following consensus: NC L7= C at GCSE; NC L8=B at GCSE, NC L9=A at GCSE, NC L10=A at GCSE. Now of course the GCSE scoring system is changing to a 1 - 9 system whereby a 9 is the top 2/3rds performance at A on present GCSE scheme: source: www.theguardian.com/education/2013/jun/04/gcses-i-levels-ebacc-ofqual-exams

I think for mathematics the first thing to absorb for your child is that NC Level 5 isn't a huge achievement. about 40% of pupils in England are doing that year on year: source: www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/sep/19/sats-results-key-stage-two - scroll down to SATs KS2 Maths data table at bottom.

That has them finishing Year 9 on a target of NC L6/7 for the school (remembering that Nc L7 equates roughly to a C grade at GCSE two year's later at end Year 11). So for your son to just work to target he'd have to improve two full NC Levels to achieve an A at GCSE (in old money) - and my understanding is that the requirments for the new maths GCSE (which he will sit 5 years from now) will be even tougher.

So when you ask is it worth him going for it - yes - because as you say you have a son who needs pushing (and I presume you don't always want to be the one pushing?) - so achieving NC L6 will push his secondary school to get him to Nc L7/8 by end Year 9 and NC L9/10 by end Year 11 (i.e. A/ A* territory).

Now that may not be important to you for any number of reasons - but my understanding is in terms of STEM subjects (so if he wants to be a VET/ go into medicine/ do a hard science/ study engineering etc....) it will give him many more university options than a B at A Level.

My view is this. There is no cost to sitting a Level 6. It's like going for a slightly higher bar in the high jump. You've made Level 5, why not have a go at Level 6 - you have the chance and you won't find out unless you try. Yes I agree odds are your son will only just scrape into NC L6 territory (after all that's the high end of average ability of end KS3 students) - but what an achievement if he does eh? I suppose the way to think of this was if this was an athletics opportunity - a chance to swim or run faster than before/ score more goals or the winning goal/ etc.... would you or your son baulk at the opportunity?

HTH

PS by the way there are a number of things your son can do at home which will help prepare him for NC L6 maths testing (even if only over Easter break).

He could for instance learn about algebra (which seems to be the real separator): things like Khan Academy (free) or Maths Factor (subscription) are a real help there.

Make sure he really knows how to handle and interchange between ratio/ proportion/ percentages. Woodlands Junior School Maths Zone (free) can help there. Also Mathsfactor (subscription).

Make sure he gets fractions (how to add/ subtract and multiply)/ how to reduce to lowest common demoninator or find common denominators (classic question is to be given 3 fractions and work out which is the smallest or largest).

Make sure long division/ multiplication - so something along the lines of 4365 divided by 13 or 435 x 87 are secure.

Consider investing in a KS2 SATs L6 workbook - select one that also teaches these calculation skills.

It is a short time until May 11th - just 2 months. But some real breakthroughs can occur in those months.

15 minutes a day x 60 days = 15 hours of maths learning = 3 weeks of school (well more actually as the pace/ standard will be higher) & bearing in mind he'll be doing L6 work in school as well - a whole heap of skills can be picked up or reinforced in these next few weeks. After all 12 points (the difference between his 20 and the 32 required to pass) probably equates to

I can't find any definitive governmental statement on equating Nc levels to GCSE results - but this discussion of TES (community.tes.co.uk/tes_assessment/f/82/t/344140.aspx) seems to have the following consensus: NC L7= C at GCSE; NC L8=B at GCSE, NC L9=A at GCSE, NC L10=A* at GCSE.

Sorry but that's incorrect there were only 8 levels not 10.

PastSellby - they don't mean a level 7 equates to a C in 2 years time. They mean a 7 equates to a C!

So if a child working at a level 7, in whatever year, sat a GCSE paper you'd expect them to get a C.

www.education.gov.uk/schools/performance/archive/ks3_04/k3.shtml however this is the final year levels will be used.

My DD was given the option last year. She refused to do it when it came to it. She is still pretty much top of top set at her senior school.
I knew she could have passed (and without any teaching from her Primary - but thats another story), but also knew her senior school would see quickly how bright she was.

OP if your son doesn't deal with failure well - I wouldn't make him do it, as it would just re-enforce his feelings of inadequacy. If he succeeded he might well right it off as a fluke.
I suggest you read Carol Dweck and try to encourage your son into a "growth mindset". If you could do that between now and September it would probably be far more valuable than any work of level 6 maths techniques.

Oh and my DD is achieving regular 7c/7b in tests and has a target of 7a by the end of the year.

Agreed that you are misinterpreting it pastsellby. After all remember that before level 6 came in, plenty of children were getting a/a* from starting at a level 5 and it was quite normal to set a level 7/8 target based on leaving ks2 at a level 5.

My teens spout GCSE equivalents for their NC levels, I can't remember what they said because i don't much care, but it's obvious the teachers are working to some rules of thumb (2 different schools).

@ RedSky, There is a thread might interest you in the G&T section about "What next after Level 6". I am finding some of the stories in this thread uncomfortably pushy, tbh! But obv. some kids rise to a challenge and need that bar set high or they won't aim there. Good luck.

Remember the expectation was that most children achieved a level 5/6 at the end of KS3.

Comparing the old level descriptors with GCSE criteria puts a C as anywhere from level5 to between L6/7 but there has never been a direct correlation.

I want my dc to do it,they're already getting 5a so why on earth wouldn't I.

Sorry sitting back and putting their feet between now and next Sep when they start secondary simply isn't in their best interest.I am the parent so if asked would go by that.Thankfully mine do want to do it,they'd rather have a new challenge than going over old stuff ad nauseam.Think they've stretched things out sideways as much as they can.

Our secondaries do use Sats results anyway so it is in their best interest either way.Obviously I've told them it really doesn't matter to me if they actually get it as long as they continue to work hard.

I don't think anyone has suggested putting their feet up. Children will still be learning but do they need to sit an extra set of tests?

Funny how level 4 kids working hard to get a 5 isn't never agonised over.

It's hardly a big deal,it's one extra afternoon test. In some countries kids their age are out working.

I suppose the possible 'fail' of the L6 test is an opportunity, too, to learn that failure is not a permanent fail it's just a delayed pass. Character building & all that malarky.

I imagine If I were OP I would tell my son why I thought it was worth trying for, talk it over with the boy but leave it as his decision. I have other things to worry about with my kids and I have learned the hard way that if they really don't want to do something, it's probably the right decision for them. But our schools seem to follow Ofsted best practice by moving kids around sets etc. quite often in Yr7-8, so KS2 SAT results aren't definitive. As for KS3 & GCSE targets, I have no end of fun telling DC that they are stab in the dark guesswork.

Wow some really mixed views! Just to respond to some of the points.

DS will cover Level 6 material in class anyway, it's just a case of whether he sits the formal SAT. If he was more likely to get it, I would encourage, but worried he might be despondent if he "failed" (though actually I don't think he would, the school are not pushing it at all, so I think he does realise it's a nice to have!)

We will not be doing any extra work at home. (his homework this week is to go through a Level 6 paper which is fine and he will obviously do, but we won't be doing more than required)

We don't live in a pushy area and no one will be tutoring (well, maybe 1 parent whose child is super bright anyway).

School is not pushy about Level 6 (they are too busy getting children to Level 4) and he won't have extra classes at school - though as I said he will cover Level 6 material in normal lessons.

This won't affect his set at secondary school. In KS3 the school only sets "roughly" - they take the top third of the year group and put them in three equal "higher" sets. DS will be in a higher set regardless of Level 6 or not.