Worth trying for Level 6 maths?

[redskybynight]

DS in Year 6 is currently working at 5a in maths. Just before half term he was given a Level 6 SATS paper in which he scored 20 out of 50 (32 required for a Level 6). however, up to that point he'd had very little Level 6 teaching.

School have (unhelpfully) said it is up to him whether he wants to take the real Level 6 paper in May. Regardless they are, and will keep doing, more teaching of Level 6 material to their most able children.

DS is the sort of child who likes to do the minimum and needs constant pushing so is not keen to do the Level 6. He also has a tendency to believe that he is rubbish at everything, so putting him in for a paper where he is by no means guaranteed to "pass" is a bit of a worry.

Question is - is it worth pushing him to do it (with a view based on his current assessment that he may well not achieve Level 6)? Or is it better to suggest that he doesn't worry about it and just "banks" his Level 5.?

If it makes a difference, the secondary school he is going to only sets "roughly" in KS3 and this won't have any effect on any potential set he is put in.

In some countries kids that age are married.

It makes no difference to the OP's dilemma, though. Her child isn't in other countries.

He's in this one, about to sit his year 6 SATs in a couple of months. There is new content to learn for that paper and some schools are only teaching it out of school time. Great for a child who loves maths (like mine, though he's being taught in school time because the set up of his school makes that possible) but unnecessary pressure for a child who is competent but not enthusiastic.

The level 7 at KS3 equating to an A at GCSE and so on isn't a hard and fast predictor of grades, btw. It's used for target setting by schools.

There is only pressure if you put it onto them and say you must get a 6.

But heyho only the op knows her child and she seems to have made her decision.

Um, I've not made my decision at all - I'm totally 50-50 about it! Interesting that you think I have ... perhaps I have revealed a subconscious thought ? (and what decision did you think I've made as a matter of interest?)

It's an 11 year old taking three tests in one day ... Some kids will love it (my son loved exams) others will take it in their stride and others will hate every second. Only the OP knows how her child will feel.

Redsky you could be describing my ds2. He's had 5a's since end of year 5, the school can't (or doesn't seem able to) grade him any higher, has had 100% on several practice papers, yet he cba taking the level 6 paper. Several children are planning to give it a go, but ds is absolutely clear that it won't benefit him so why bother... We're having the same dilemma - push him or admit he's right about that bit see his pov?

Which is why we give potential candidates the option. Those who choose not to take the exam are usually the ones who would worry/struggle in any case, I've never had a child decide to take the level 6 paper who wasn't capable of achieving it ( even if they didn't all quite make it on the day!!)

I think you subconsciously don't want him to do it op and should go with that,we don't know you child.

If he is capable of course he should give it a go.
So what if he doesn't get it. That is a good lesson imo that you should strive for things and not just play it safe.

And even if he is a worrier best to learn how to cope with this in primary.

If they don't get it, isn't there a risk with some children going into secondary school believing that they are not that good at maths? Which can become self fulfilling if not carefully managed.

In spite of what you read on MN, L5 is excellent for math. OP's son is already L5. If he thinks that's not good enough then the problem is his tending to believe that nothing he does is good enough, he probably wouldn't be reassured by the L6 either, or not for long, anyway. That problem, thinking he's not good enough, will persist whether he goes for L6 or not.

Everyone has to learn to shrug some 'failure' off. It's usually only temporary, anyway. Whether this is the right opportunity for OP's son to wrestle with that insecurity, only OP can best judge.

It is excellent ragged but with a whole new target for bright kids, I do think it may change people's realisation of that.

Hopefully they will stop stressing over levels now they have been scrapped.

Hi Mrs Shield & everybody

My apologies - my message was written in haste so I could get off the computer and let DD1 do some homework research.

What I mean by saying NC Level 4/5/6/ etc... 'equates' D/ C/ B/ etc... at GCSE is quite simple if your child is doing Level 7 now, in theory they're able to achieve a 'C' on a GCSE Maths exam (no guarantee of course) RIGHT NOW! (I doubt it's actually that straightforward - but in principle they could handle to maths).

Now my personal opinion has always been that it is best to be overprepared for a test/ exam - so that you can make the best possible account of yourself.

What I was trying to say - and I know it's a bit garbled - is if Red Sky's (original OP) son settled for a Level 5 and achieves it at KS2 SATs. Yes it's a good result - but I believe it's a mistake as a parent to see it isn't a fantastic result. And no I'm not saying don't be proud of your child or pleased with the school - but understand a few things:

1. about 40% of pupils in England also achieve this (so it isn't "a very high standard" as DD1's primary was always saying - it'a a good standard and I feel if you achieve this you are very secure for maths presented to you in mathematics and science classes - let alone cooking/ geography/ D&T/ etc...) but it is by no means an 'amazing' or high standard of achievement. Obviously there's a large breadth of results between 5c and 5a - but children/ parents don't tend to get that type of detail with their results.

2. I'm just a parent - but my notional understanding is that secondary schools are required to progress pupils 3 full NC Levels above their KS2 SATs results between Y7 and Year 11.

just notionally tracking a child who achieved NC L5 at KS2 SATs Maths:

end Y6 L5
end Y9 L6/ L7
end Y11 L7/ L8 (C/ B territory at GCSE)

now this is notional road map of progress may seem unfair but OFSTED themselves have published data to demonstrate that about 42% (just less than half) of pupils in ordinary non-selective state schools who achieved Level 5 at KS2 Maths went on to achieve A/ A* at GCSE: source: www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/408909/The_most_able_students_an_update_on_progress_since_June_2013.pdf - see graph p. 25 comparing results for Level 5 KS2 SATs scorers at 2014 GCSEs selective/ non-selective school data separated.

Interestingly OFSTED found that ~75% of NC L5 pupils on KS2 Maths at non-selective state schools did go on to achieve B or better at GCSE Maths.

Another statistic was notable - at selective schools - where there is a large majority of highly able pupils - 75% of those achieving NC L5 at KS2 SATs convert that to an A or A* at GCSE.

Digging further into the data that 'average' of 42% achieving A/A* at A Levels becomes shaky if your KS2 Level 5 achieving child is in a minority of pupils at his/ her non-selective secondary school - see Figure 4/ page 28 - as low as 29% chance of achieving this if

PastSellByDate Statistics can only tell you trends, not the absolute for your child.

In my case my "hope" as a parent is that regardless of whether DS gets a Level 5 or Level 6 (or indeed a Level 3 or 4), his secondary school will endeavour to help him do the best he can, and based on his starting point anything should be possible (including an A* or whatever the new equivalent is).

My reading of the statistics only tells me that a child who is achieving more highly than expected at KS2 is likely to do better than average at GCSE. And that children who do even better at KS2 are more likely to do even better at GCSE. Which frankly I would have guessed without seeing the statistics.

In my case whether or not DS sits for the Level 6 paper and whether or not he achieves it or misses by a mark or misses by miles, his ACTUAL starting point at secondary school is the same. Being labelled as "Level 6" does not change DS's inherent ability or his inherenet personality, or whether he's likely to fall in with the "wrong crowd" in Year 9 and gloriously fail everything. You seem to be saying that simply being labelled as Level 6 will mean that DS will do better. That because he is Level 6 his school will try harder? I guess this is where I am perhaps naive because (going back to my first statement) I would like to think that his secondary school will treat him as an individual and not someone who needs to be moved along by x levels.

"You seem to be saying that simply being labelled as Level 6 will mean that DS will do better. That because he is Level 6 his school will try harder? I guess this is where I am perhaps naive because (going back to my first statement) I would like to think that his secondary school will treat him as an individual and not someone who needs to be moved along by x levels."

yes this is reality. secondary schools have 200+ individuals per year. targets, on track, value add scores etc... management by spreadsheet is the reality.

TeddTess - but each class teacher has only 30 pupils at a time. In my experience of children at a very large secondary - their teachers do notice if a pupil is underachieving compared to their performance in class in tests; even within the first month! (My DS started secondary, sat a test to determine sets after 1 month - did badly and his teacher found him to find out why - at this point they gave him extra time on all tests, as he was struggling to comprehend the questions.)

Good teachers will not just rely or pre-judge on SATs results.
Level 6 tests are not even sat by pupils at all schools.

redskybynight - you sound like a sensible parent, let him choose - at a good school it will make little difference if he is a high level 5 or a level 6.

It's hardly a big deal,it's one extra afternoon test.confused In some countries kids their age are out working.

and not just sanitised working acording to child welafre rules but hard graft nasty work.

RedSky

I take your point absolutely - whatever the score there is no guarantee.

I'm using the statistics (which aren't just a snapshot but reflect decades of trends) to demonstrate to you that achieving NC L5 makes it highly likely your child will go on to achieve B or better at A Levels but he/ she only has a 50/50 chance (in state sector non-selective secondaries) of converting that to an A/ A* at A Level.

In part I feel achieving NC L5 does have risks parents need to be aware of:

First and foremost: Secondary schools are only required to raise achievement (VA score) from KS2 SATs to GCSE by three NC Levels (old money). So if RedSky's son settles for NC level 5 his school is only required to get him to NC Level 8 (old money) which equates to a B at GCSE. By that score they've done a good job by him. Obviously one can hope that their child is going on to the type of school that will achieve more than expected - but my impression here is that's an unusual school to do that with every child (just going by Birmingham friends stories of secondary schools in state sector) and why would they put that effort into your child over a borderline C? I know things are changing but at the end of the day it's the statistic of C-A GCSEs that concerns secondary schools - not A/A*s.

Second, most pupils achieving a B at GCSE in Maths are discouraged from selecting higher maths for sixth form - that tends to be the reserve of A/A* GCSE pupils. This decision will close educational opporutnities down in many sciences and mathematics at University.

RedSky - I totally take your point that your son's ability and starting point 'will be the same' - but the school will be under absolutely no pressure to get him to an A/A* by regulators (DfE/ Ofsted) with a Level 5. Obviously they'll like to - but if he achieves a B that's not a huge problem for them - they've officially done their job.

With a Level 6 - questions will be asked (and reforms are going into place) of a secondary who doesn't get that ability to an A/A* at GCSE.

That's the subtle difference I want to make.

Now maybe your secondary is fantastic and all NC Level 5 Maths pupils entering ther go on to get A/A* at GCSE?

Our secondary (non-selective state sector) is one of the best in Birmingham and less 10% of pupils out of the 150 yearly intake on average go on to achieve A/ A* in maths.

I think it's that statistic you need to research at your school. Let's assume 40% of the intake at your school are L5 (after all that's the national trend) - what percentage of the intake go on to achieve A/A* at GCSE there? Research that - if it's

If he might get it then go for it, it is a great boost to their confidence (dd got a level 6 and was thrilled and surprised) equally she got level 5s for everything else and was happy with those too. Unless you think your son will be devastated about not getting a level 6 (unlikely I reckon, by the point of term they found out they are all focused on where they are going to secondary) I can't see the harm in him tryying it. The extra stuff they will do at school will help boost his maths up and you can sell it to him as giving him a slightly easier first year at secondary because he'll be ahead of the curve in Maths.