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Primary education

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Original poster

Any teacher's around please? Question regarding current levels and end of year prediction

29 replies

Eddas · 01/03/2015 13:07

I have a question regarding levels. I am needing dd's school to give me current levels plus predicted end of year levels because of a school place appeal. Thy have given this to me but they are saying her current level in maths will be the predicted end of year level too. Is this usual? I know it's all child dependant but her writing is different and I don't really understand why she wouldn't improve at all over the next 5 months?

FYI her current level is a 4a and she was told that she was very nearly a 5. So if this is the case and she is currently nearly a 5 surely she will achieve this by the end of the school year?

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AsBrightAsAJewel · 01/03/2015 13:50

Which year group is your daughter in?

spanieleyes · 01/03/2015 13:53

and why do you need levels for a place appeal? Levels have nothing to do with the availibility ( or not) of a place.

toomuchicecream · 01/03/2015 14:33

It depends how much progress she's made since the start of the school year. If she's already made 2 sub-levels since September (and perhaps is viewed as only just into the current sub-level), a cautious teacher could justify an end of year target the same as her current level. Don't forget, children's progress isn't linear - they tend to spurt forward and then consolidate before spurting forward again. So if your DD has made a lot of progress recently, it's perfectly possible she might not go up another sub-level for a while. That doesn't mean she's not making progress, it just means that the progress is within a sub level.

Original poster

Eddas · 01/03/2015 15:46

AsBrightAsAJewel she's in year 6.

Spanieleyes, i'm appealing a grammar school place based on non qualification, ie she failed the Kent Test. I need to prove her levels to stand a chance of a successful appeal.

toomuchiceacream, they have just had assessments. Currently she is a 4a and was told she was 3 marks away from a 5. They are saying 4a+ by the end of the year.

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gymboywalton · 01/03/2015 15:50

kids who pass the grammar school tests are normally high five or level 6 though.
Do you think it's a good idea to try and get her into a school where she will be constantly struggling to keep up?

my son got high level 5's in everything at the end of year 6 and he's not even in the top classes at his normal comprehensive.

spanieleyes · 01/03/2015 15:53

If I didnt get my yr 6's from a "current level 4a+, 3 marks from a level 5" to a solid level 5 by the end of the year, I would be shot!!

Original poster

Eddas · 01/03/2015 15:57

gymboywalton. As far as i'm aware a level 6 is quite rare. Dd is level 5 in all other subjects bar maths and is quite close to level 5 in maths. Girls are well known to be lower in maths at this age (local grammar headteacher said this when we went to visit. She said if they fail the Kent Test it would be maths they fail on) I wouldn't appeal if I felt she would struggle. She achieved the overall passmark but fell short in maths by 6 marks, which equates to 1 or 2 questions. Had she narrowly passed she would be going to grammar.

Sorry to sound snappy but this thread wasn't to ask IF I should appeal and I have had MANY MANY opinions on this already, I just wanted to find out about levels and how they work. I truly think dd will thrive at grammar. I am also fully aware we may fail the appeal but I want to give it my best shot

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Original poster

Eddas · 01/03/2015 16:02

spanieleyes, ok so worth a question of why they are predicting this then? I have asked about levels so many times this year I feel like 'one of those parents' that I hate who constantly obsess over where dc are!! I don't normally!!

For background these are dd's levels at the end of each year for maths perhaps they will help know why they are only saying 4a now will be 4a+ by the end of year 6....

Year 2 2a
Year 3 2a (hmmm don't ask!)
Year 4 3a
Year 5 4c+
Year 6 current 4a
Year 6 predicted end of year 4a+

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Finola1step · 01/03/2015 16:13

Hi Eddas, Assistant Head of a primary school here. Essentially, from the information you have given, the school are telling you that your dd is a very strong level 4 in Maths. That there is every chance that she may achieve a Level 5 in the tests (hence the 4a+) but they do not want to say that she will be a solid Level 5 across all areas of the maths curriculum by the end of the year. This would be a big jump. I think it will be unlikely that this will be changed.

It's entirely up to you if you want to appeal (it's worth a chance). Are the school supporting you in the appeal?

spanieleyes · 01/03/2015 16:20

But if she is currently a level 4a+, and only 3 marks off a level 5, there is no reason at all to suppose she would not be a level 5 by the end of the year ( whether she achieves a level 5 in the SATS tests or not!) There are still 5 more months of teaching, any year 6 teacher who cannot raise a child's performance by one sub level in 5 months is not earning their keep! ( and that's said as a year 6 teacher, a maths specialist teacher and an assistant Head!!)
So either she isnt a secure level 4a now or the school take 4 months off!

Original poster

Eddas · 01/03/2015 16:21

Finola1step that makes sense, thank you. For DD to be a solid 5 would be a jump. I don't want the school to over-do her predictions although a 5 would be a lot better for the appeal

I am definitely appealing because if I don't I will always wonder 'what if'.

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Original poster

Eddas · 01/03/2015 16:25

spanieleyes I need to check with her teacher I think because the '3 marks off a 5' came from dd, although she is usually reliable with her information.

Thanks for the help. I'll go back to the school and query the reasoning behind the predictions.

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redskybynight · 01/03/2015 20:39

3 marks off a Level 5 just means that was her mark in whatever assessment it was they did though? She may not be working consistently at that level. Also to point out unless your school is very unusual their "end of year" level is likely to be SATs i.e. only 2 months more. so she may go up a sublevel but equally likely not to.

spanieleyes · 01/03/2015 21:00

True, but if one assessment is based on the results of a test then presumably any future assessments would be based on the same premis. In which case 3 marks is neither here nor there, certainly in 5 months 3 marks is almost guaranteed!

( We have year 6 assessments in July, the beginning of May is far too early to be giving final end of year levels, our reports give SATS levels and end of year levels, quite often they are very different)

mrz · 01/03/2015 21:56

It's possible the tests only form a small part of the overall assessment and normal work is just a 4A rather than almost 5C

Original poster

Eddas · 01/03/2015 22:38

I really a hating being so obsessed by levels, I don't really care if she's 4a or 5c but I have to for the purpose of the appeal as it could make a difference. I'm fairly sure the school must think she's more likely to come out with a 4a rather than a 5c, although I hope she proves them wrong in the end!

Thanks for all the advice. I'm trying to avoid bothering the teachers and looking like a nutter at the school!!

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HarveySchlumpfenburger · 01/03/2015 22:57

When was the target set, and what was it based on? Looks like it might be the end of year target that was set at the beginning of the year - 2 sublevels from her level at the end of year 5. The fact that the current level is the same just reflects the fact that she's made more progress than expected and has nearly met it. That doesn't mean she won't make more progress and exceed it by the end of the year.

Opopanax · 01/03/2015 23:38

I don't think it is a great idea to push a child who is achieving slightly above average into an academically demanding environment. Sorry. I know you don't want that opinion but it is probably what will serve your daughter best. She's not that far ahead of average and she may be very discouraged by a pressured environment where many are far far ahead of her.

Original poster

Eddas · 02/03/2015 00:16

Opopanax thank you but I really don't need any further opinions on my decision to appeal. If I did I would start a thread asking for opinions and would give all the facts about her academic levels and Kent Test scores.

I am her mother and as such I know her and whether she will be ok in a grammar school. Having been through the system myself as a child I am well aware of how it all works and the pressures it comes with. I also know many children who have narrowly passed the Kent Test and are doing wonderfully at grammar. I am not the sort of parent to push push push but I am certain if she can go to a grammar that will be the best place for her and I will appeal and try to get a place for her.

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Laura0806 · 02/03/2015 10:57

Good luck with it all Eddas, it certianly sounds stressful and such a shame it all comes down to the performance on one given day.

sonupulu · 02/03/2015 12:40

Hi Eddas. How old are your children and what group are they in?

jeee · 02/03/2015 12:46

Eddas, this reply isn't about levels, but about the Kent Test. I know several successful non-qualification appeals, and they all have two things in common:

The school that appealed for is undersubscribed (I live in East Kent, and there are always some undersubscribed grammar schools)
The primary school is supportive of the appeal - the Head Teacher writes a really strong supporting letter, and assists in providing evidence (in fact, the child has already been the subject of an unsuccessful Head Teacher appeal).

I think, without obsessing about levels, you need to speak with your child's primary school and find out whether they will be supporting the appeal.

Original poster

Eddas · 02/03/2015 17:33

Thanks Laura0806, yes whole system is pretty rubbish but hey what can we do but play along

sonupulu my dd is in year 6, as far as 'group' I assume you mean within her class? I'm not sure. I'm sure there are sets but they don't advertise them to parents.

Jeee thanks, I have the schools support and they're willing to help anyway they can. I've been researching the appeal process on and off since we got the fail. Another forum is very good for advice, I've been reading it a lot! My issue at the moment is making sure I write a good enough appeal with associated evidence, which is why the levels matter to me and why I want to understand how the levels change over the year. I have a letter from dd's school for the appeal containing scores, which prompted this thread.

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Original poster

Eddas · 02/03/2015 17:42

and dd did have an unsuccessful HT appeal too.

For the benefit of those interested re my decision to appeal. DD fell short only on her maths, everything else is where it should be for grammar. I am under the impression the girls are often lower in maths at this age, as she fell short in maths only I think we would be failing dd not to attempt an appeal. It may well be that we are unsuccessful but I have to try or I will always wonder.

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LL0015 · 02/03/2015 21:40

Good luck Eddas. As a Kent grammar girl, there were plenty of us who were rubbish at Maths, but we aced the rest of the curriculum giving the school the high A grades they desired.
I hope you are successful.

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