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Year 5 levels - are there none?

98 replies

buggybored · 12/02/2015 20:03

Bit bemused. At recent parents' evening teacher of younger child ran throughDC's levels at start of year, currently and anticipated by end of summer term by reference to a scale of between 2a and 3. All fine and dandy. However, teacher of DC in year 5, whilst making lots of positive general noises insisted they couldn't give an attainment level (current or expected) due to recent curriculum changes. Is this correct? AIBU to expect to have an objective standard in order to understand how my child is progressing?

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Waitingonasunnyday · 16/02/2015 15:01

DS' teacher told me 'we don't have levels now, but we are following Classroom Monitor, but after the election I don't know what will happen'

Arrggghhh. Please just tell me if he is doing well (a) compared to national (b) compared to classmates (c) compared to expectations FOR HIM.

Surely schools are still going to teach roughly the same thing at the same age as they always have? How much can education change, really, deep down?

They're not going to be doing times tables in reception or leaving division until Y6 are they? 'Oh sorry you were off yesterday, you've missed learning to spell'. etc

mrz · 16/02/2015 15:13

How is the number more accurate when you don't even know what it means in real terms?

mrz · 16/02/2015 15:13

Waiting Tristan Hunt has said he won't change things if Labour win

camaleon · 16/02/2015 15:18

I don't know what exceeding means either mrz. Even less compared to the random cohort of children in any given classroom. I don't fight it, I never request more information from school, but I don't think it is great.
A part of me believes this happens in primary schools and not later on because there is a general understanding about the limited capacity of children and their parents (mainly mothers) to fully grasp any form of grading. Once schools/Colleges/Universities get rid of the 'hysterical' not fully brained mums and their offsprings, and have to deal with bigger human beings they cannot get away with this.
A very close friend with a child attending my school discovered her child had a learning difficulty based on those silly numbers at the end of year2. Previously, she had been reassured by several teachers about different ways of learning at different pace. It was the clear printed numbers that prompted her to seek outside help and a diagnosis. The numbers gave her a clear picture on how far from the expected national standard her child was. Of course this could have been done differently but it wasn't.

mrz · 16/02/2015 15:57

Try a dictionary

ChocolateWombat · 16/02/2015 16:01

I think it is important to have a national system.
At GCSE and A Level we have a national system and no one expects schools to develop their own ways of measuring attainment at that point. I suspect that most parents couldn't say what an A at GCSE in Biology, or a C in Maths means, in terms of what they can do - this doesn't limit their usefulness,for children, parents and employers.
However,frequently the reasoning that is trotted out (and has been on this thread) against national expectations or measurements, is that they don't tell parents what their child can do.

To anyone who says that it is irrelevant where a child's attainment lies in terms of national expectations, but the only thing that matters is their own progress, I say ROT! It DOES matter. Being below national expectations at a certain point does not mean someone's life is ruined or they can never progress or be happy, but if someone fails to achieve a solid range of GCSEs then their life chances in terms of work are limited. And being on track for that kind of outcome can be indicated from national approaches to tracking and interventions can then be applied to try to improve outcomes.

If all schools adopted a system where they talked about the NC for that year and used the terms emerging, expected, exceeding, then parents would have some kind of idea. This isn't even uniform now though. Even if it were! if a child is reported to parents as emerging, it isn't clear to the parents if they are slightly behind national expectations or far far behind. And I do think parents need to know that....and the old NC levels did give more of an indication of that......similar to knowing a D at GCSE wasn't a fail by much, whilst an F was a fail by a long way.

And surely in terms of government tracking of progress, schools have to feed information into a system which uses nationally accepted measures. Yes I know only Yr2 and Yr6 reporting is compulsory yada yada yada, but we all know that as schools used to break down the steps of progress required at KS2 into unofficial points to reach at the end of each year,to be on track for L4 or 4B or whatever, this will still happen in some form, even if schools all develop their own versions, which parents are not privy to. I don't believe for one moment that any school will not have a measurement for what a child needs to be at, for each year of primary schooling, in order to be on track to meet government minimum guidelines......and hence in doing that, they will also be tracking those performing above And below, and not just by the terms emerging or exceeding, but in terms of greater breakdown than that.

And children will continue to be set in Year 7, and GCSE predictions to be based on what they achieved at the end of KS2, in the same way that predictions of KS2 outcomes will be based on KS1 outcomes.........the info is all there......parents just want to know.

Again, I return to the point that parents don't need to know what a B grade at GCSE involved or what an A at A level involved knowing, for it to be useful. What they can take from it (in advance of results and after them) is the next options that are available given those results - and that is really important. So they know if A Levels are sensible at 16, if an apprenticeship might be viable, if applying to a Russell Group Uni is viable or daft. And knowing about attainment relative to national expectations delivers the same kind of useful information for all children from the start of school until the end.

ChocolateWombat · 16/02/2015 16:12

One of the problems for parents,is that teacher feedback at parents can be vague.
'He is doing well'
'He is on track for where he should be'
'He is progressing well'
Are all said to encourage parents. These statements could be used to refer to a child performing a at, below or above national expectations and the parents could have no idea, which of those their child was.

Frequently parents are disappointed at the end of a Key Stage, by what they see as low attainment and say 'we were told all was going well' - yes, well your idea of going well wasn't the same as the schools. And I think schools don't like being clear about where children are with regards to national expectations etc.

At least Levels reported annually (even if un officially, and even if based on the schools working out of steps towards a Year 6 outcome, that was unofficial) gave parents who wanted to know more of an idea.

And of course, simply knowing that your child is one of the 80% on line for national expectations or whatever! is t that thrilling for many people who have higher expectations of their child than that - who hope for Grammar school (in some areas) or top sets, or top universities - they need more than simply their child is meeting expectations isn't enough. Nor is simply knowing they are exceeding enough. The Q is, are they exceeding by enough? Are they on track to achieve at the highest levels?

It isn't wrong for parents to be interested in these things. In many ways, NC Levels managed expectations, so that the aspirational parent grasped that little Johnny really wasnt likely to be joining the civil service fast track scheme in 8 years time.

Schools use the data to project forward, and parents want to be able to do that, a loose level too.

camaleon · 16/02/2015 16:14

mrz... your answer expresses my point about patronising attitudes from school more succinctly than any number I can think of.

mrz · 16/02/2015 16:20

No it expresses frustration! you are happy to accept an A, B or C but claim that you don't understand a common word ...

As a teacher I would hope that you would be provided with detailed information regarding your child but you have said you prefer numbers and letters. Confused So would you be happy if your Y5 child was assessed as 5A - meaning Year 5 exceeding?

camaleon · 16/02/2015 16:25

ChocolateWombat has explained it very well. I am very frustrated too as a parent.

TeenAndTween · 16/02/2015 16:31

mrz normally I think what you say is very sound, but this time I'm not so sure, maybe I'm missing the point.

If my y5 child is classed as 'emerging' at the end of the year, I will know she is behind. But I won't know if that is slightly behind, or masses behind.

Whereas under the old system of NC levels. Things were much clearer. You were expected to be 3a/4c by end y5. So if you were 3a you knew you were there or there abouts. If the child was a 3b or a 3c or even 2a you could 'judge' the behindness.

When my y4 DD1 got a 2a for maths, I could see she was at least 1.5 years behind. If now all I were told was 'emerging' that doesn't say so much.

Unless the plan is to tell a y5 child they are 'emerging y4' when they are 1.5 years behind?

TeenAndTween · 16/02/2015 16:34

I found the NC numbers as a useful short hand to know 'where should I put my effort, given DD1 is behind in everything. If I were picking one subject to work on over the summer, I knew to pick the one with the lowest NC level. (Or knew don't need to put in special effort)

Furthermore, with DD1 I got no levels in y3, and only at the end of y4. I had no idea how far behind she was in maths, just kept being told 'making progress'.

mrz · 16/02/2015 16:48

I probably annoyed my children's teachers when I told them I didn't want meaningless numbers I wanted to know details ??

mrz · 16/02/2015 16:50

TeenandTween would being told your child is a 3c/4c/5c be more enlightening?

TeenAndTween · 16/02/2015 17:07

Absolutely.

If I am told 3c for maths, 3b for Reading, 3a for writing, then I know that maths is the most 'behind'. I can see that she is meant to be at 3a so really a whole year behind.

I can then decide whether to leave the school to catch her up, or intervene myself.

My DD2's SPaG is behind. I'm not sure how much. Teachers seem unwilling to say 'she is spelling and punctuating at the expected level of a y2 child'. If you were to tell me it is 'emerging y5' that tells me nothing, especially if, if she were in y3, the same ability level would be reported as 'emerging y3'.

Whereas if you were to tell me it is 2b (if such a thing existed for SPaG) I would be able to see that the school recognises how far behind it is (and thus what interventions they are putting in-place).

So in summary, the main problem that I and other parents like Chocolate have with the new system, as we understand it, is the lack of visibility on how far behind or ahead a child is who is emerging or exceeding. We shouldn't need to pester the teachers to understand something as basic as this.

mrz · 16/02/2015 17:22

And if your child is in Y3 and you are told they are behind Y3 in maths, secure in Y3 for writing and exceeding Y3 for rapeading?

TeenAndTween · 16/02/2015 17:30

Doesn't help me nearly so much.

'Behind y3 in maths'. How much behind? a little, that maybe an extra push over the summer will resolve, or 2 years behind?

If I am told every year my child is 'emerging' are they continuing to make progress, albeit a little behind, or is the 'emerging' gap growing and growing each year??

Unless a child in say y5 can be told they are 'emerging y4'. But I don't think that's going to happen is it?

mrz · 16/02/2015 17:34

Why wouldn't it happen if that's where a child is?

PastSellByDate · 16/02/2015 17:39

mrz:

I pretty much agree with TeenandTween - I see 4a as working highly competently at that level and ready to engage in more challenging work deemed Level 5

4b as working comfortably in Level 4 but not quite mastered all skills deemed 'Level 4'

and 4c and just starting to work at that ability level.

For me - the rule of thumb (equating it to US letter grades) for Year 6 was:

NC L4 = C student
NC L5c/ 5b = B student
NC L5a/ 6 = A student

  • our school prepared descriptions of what kinds of skills a child would show in reading/ writing/ maths at these levels. I would have to go back and check from time to time -but in general it made sense.

I accept that using the same descriptors across all years is confusing - our letter grades in US would be against expected attainment by a particular year (grade as we call it). And it sounds like this is what you've moved to at your school - and hopefully you all have clearly explained what standard of work you're expecting by year with examples (probably drawn from programmes of study for New National Curriculum).

TeenAndTween · 16/02/2015 17:42

Refer to the end of my post Mon 16-Feb-15 16:31:11 where I asked before.

If you have now answered that a y5 child can be told they are 'emerging y4' , then I am happy with the new system. But I haven't seen you say it yet (or any other teacher).

Maybe it is obvious to you that of course you will tell a parent of a y5 child they are 'emerging y4', but stating it plainly that that is what will happen would go a long way to making nervous parents like myself and Chocolate feel more comfortable.

mrz · 16/02/2015 18:03

If a child is working at emergent 4, 3, 2 or 1 parents need to be told

mrz · 16/02/2015 18:03

I would hope that thus wouldn't be news

TeenAndTween · 16/02/2015 18:10

Good, we're all happy then. Smile

Unfortunately, there are lots of things I might hope for from the education system that don't always materialise, so I guess I'll have to wait and see.

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