Year 5 levels - are there none?

[buggybored]

Bit bemused. At recent parents' evening teacher of younger child ran throughDC's levels at start of year, currently and anticipated by end of summer term by reference to a scale of between 2a and 3. All fine and dandy. However, teacher of DC in year 5, whilst making lots of positive general noises insisted they couldn't give an attainment level (current or expected) due to recent curriculum changes. Is this correct? AIBU to expect to have an objective standard in order to understand how my child is progressing?

There are many different methods used by schools. A colleagues child's school is using standardised scores. We are using beginning, working within and secure at year group expectations.

This is so confusing. We've just had parents evening for DDs in Y3 and Y6 and levels were given for both. I now need to check the levels given for DD in Y3 to see if these refer to NC levels or the new ones.

I have to say that I find the huge focus on levels and targets a bit depressing really and I can imagine it is also an administrative nightmare for teachers to track all of this. Is the new system really any better than the old system? Why can't we adopt best practice from other countries that seem to educate their children to a high standard without any of this levels, targets, OFSTED nonsense.

There isn't a single "new" system it is up to schools to find an assessment method that works for their pupils.

I think it isn't helpful to be frustrated/ angry with schools or individual teachers about how our children's progress is reported.

The reality is this was a government decision in Gove's last months as Minister for Education. There are new levels for SATs/ GCSE/ A-Levels coming in but he has chosen to leave schools entirely free to determine how to report progress to parents.

In part this must stem from his & others in government experience of largely grammar school/ private (public) schools - where each school has their own system. What is in fact 'missing' in this new scheme is stability - it's a free for all and clearly right now ordinary parents of children at ordinary state primary schools/ academies are really confused.

At core the government have forgotten (possibly because it is politically expedient) that having a system of pupil assessment which relates back to nationally recognised standards ground truths progress for parents.

I get that teachers find it awkward predicting for parents whether a child is on track for NC L4 or NC L5 - and they don't want to make promises - but the reality is that parents need to understand in 'real terms' how their child is doing.

A system where it's a total free for all and in fact parents don't get indpendent confirmation of performance against national expectations until the waining days of Year 6/ Year 11/ Year 13 seems largely about keeping large portions of the population entirely in the dark.

The anger and angst is that parents have to pick up the pieces. Often without the support of the school/ teachers - but starting with a new team at a new school (i.e. when a child fails to achieve NC L4 at end of primary and that has to be dealt with vis a vis the new secondary).

The statistics are damning. Fail to achieve NC L4 in primary - and basically the likelihood of achieving even a C at A Level is very slim. This has been a consistent finding for decades. It's quite clear that schools are closely tracking pupil progress for OFSTED - the question is why isn't this wealth of data being shared with the parents/ carers of the pupils concerned (as this is all data on our children entirely paid for with tax payers money)?

Would a doctor with a whole series of tests showing your child had a rare disease and will soon have failing health just sit on that data?

Pastsellbydate, I agree with everything you said. In addition, this lack of information seems to be particularly damaging for those who lack the understanding and resources to work out how their kids are doing by other means. It is incredibly depressing.

Pastsellbydate, very much agree with your observations. Can I stress that I'm not in the least criticising the class teacher but unfortunately, I do, as Camelon puts it, lack the understanding and resources to work out how my DC is doing 'by other means' - would love to know what such other means are?! I can take an educated guess but would not kid myself that I have the expertise that those working at the coal face do. We are beginning to consider secondary options - given the limited resources and fact that it is not a state primary school's job to prep for entrance exams or guide towards an appropriate senior school I do not expect hand holding but it would be incredibly helpful to have an objective understanding of DC's ability (be that good, bad or ,most likely, very average) sometime in advance of the summer term of Y6...

Can you confidently say that a number and letter informs you of your child's achievement? What does 4B really mean in terms of what your child knows and can do?

It tells you where they are compared to national expectations and how much progress they have made.If you want more detail as regards what a 4b actually is there is plenty on line and it can be useful.

Parents in the dark is never a good idea and frankly this new system of every school does it's own thing does just that- puts parents in the dark.

There are enough threads on here illustrating that parents are now confused,want better info and feel more dis informed since this new idea came in.Frankly I think the Tories have screwed up big time over this and need to put it right ASAP. Simply pick a new system that everybody follows and all parents can become fully informed about- not hard.

Schools up and down the land spending time,resources and money on reinventing the wheel or buying in a scheme seems like a ridiculous waste to me.Bit like opening free schools in areas where there is no need.

School I am in is moving to emerging, working within and secure. But in my Y6 class, the emerging group includes children working at old NC levels from 1a to 3b (the upper limit shifts along as the school year progresses). So a student who has moved from 2a to 3b is making great progress, but still emerging. It is very confusing for parents And I find it inaccurate for such children. Of course in Y6 we are still using the old NC levels, but I see the problem in ks2 where the breadth of emerging can be quite wide.

Under the level system there were no national expectations for Y5 (or Y1, 3 & 4) although many people believed there were and many external organisations confidently published these expectations (and often these are quoted by posters on MN). The truth is Schools were in fact free to set their own expectations for these year groups so there could be a huge discrepancy from one school to another.
Whereas under the new curriculum there are clear national expectations for each year group and schools can confidently assess what your child knows and where there are gaps to work on.

But we knew they had to be on course for level 2 at KS1 Sats and level 4 at KS2 Sats to be within national expectations.

And now you know exactly what they need to cover in each year group in order to be on track to meet end of Key Stage expectations ... ?

Errr we don't as we haven't been told what they're supposed to be achieving,what they're doing,their progress,where they are within the new curriculum,what the new curriculum even is,how this fits in with national averages and similar schools,what the schools's new system is or how it slots in within the system and other schools.I am utterly clueless as regards my year 5 child.

As regards my year 6 children I know exactly where they are,what they're doing,what they're working towards,their progress and how they fit in as regards national expectations.By looking at last years league tables I also know how the weaknesses of their school as regards Sats and how they compare with other local schools.

Frankly the lack of info for year 5 parents is utterly shit.I thought it was just the school my kids are at but it clearly isn't. Very concerned that they are becoming the guinea pig year and with an upcoming election going to get forgotten. After May it could be all change again.Our dc have to live with next years Sats throughout secondary and frankly this lack of info,confusion and everybody doing their own thing is not in their best interest.

The information is freely available and the school should be telling you what your child can do rather than giving you meaningless numbers.

When you say you know what your Y6 children need to achieve do you mean you know what number they need to reach to hit an arbitrary target on a made up scale or do you know what skills and knowledge they need to develop?

Both

I think mrz is right in that the new programmes of study for each subject in the national curriculum mean parents know precisely what should be covered (and notionally mastered) in a given school year. Info here: www.gov.uk/government/collections/national-curriculum - scroll down to programmes of study, select subject and then read information for a given year.

However - what is slightly disingenuous mrz is that although a parent may know in detail what should be covered they may not themselves be in a position to assess how their child is doing in terms of all of these skills. In fact I think that can be likely for parents for any number of reasons: not well educated themselves, English isn't a first language or poor English skills, illness or other 'issues' which may mean they're not really engaged with their child's learning, etc....

So a convenient short-hand for parents which explains against all the things taught in year 5 (as proudmama272 has a Year 5 DS), for example, which lets parents know how their child is doing is necessary.

Whether you want to use letter grades A-D & F or verbal descriptors (mastery/ above expectations/ at expectations/ below expectations is by the by - but parents need to be able to relate indvidual year achievement to predicted performance at critical end of key stage exams (KS2/ KS4/ KS5). And teachers need to engage with parents about this - because we aren't the enemy - we're quite an ally in this education of the next generation lark. Telling us honestly that DC is going to struggle to achieve Nc L4b if he doesn't improve his multiplication skills, his writing, his grammar, etc.... is professional advice and many parents will help at home to improve those skills given some direction/ guidance from teachers.

Thanks PSBD well summarised.

Have to say on looking at that link it's not that clear. Looking at English 5-6 seem to be together( we'll gloss over the shed load of stuff they are supposed to have covered in previous years I'm clueless as to whether dc has covered and is up to speed on). How do you ascertain how your child in any particular term( let's pick this term) is on track for their year?

I didn't say parents should know PSBD it's up to the school to inform parents.

But Mrz if there is no uniform system those of us with kids in school where parental info is shite are at a serious disadvantage.It is far harder to pick things apart and work it out for yourself. Saying well schools should be doing this,that and the other isn't helpful- many don't.

Gove has made a right pigs ear of this hasn't he. I'm living in hope that the school will continue using the old levels.

But there is a uniform system it's called the National Curriculum

mrz - I do take your point and yes in an ideal world schools would openly, clearly and honestly inform parents how their child is doing against expectations for a given school year and in terms of predicted performance on end Y6 KS2 SATs.

But, mrz, I think even you have to admit that schools informing parents on how their children are doing isn't happening everywhere.

Sure I got a five page report - which said my daughter attended a field trip and thoroughly enjoyed it when she was absent due to illness and that she's gaining increasing confidence with catching a ball, when she could do that well age 5. Once I actually had another child's name (from a previous year) in DD1's report. The reality is that school reports are time consuming for teachers. Frequently teachers are using computer software now to generate standard statements and so much time is wasted generating these mini-novels and then meeting with parents to discuss documents which don't say a lot really, that you can 'drop the ball' in terms of tuition.

Here's something radical. Yes it can be dispiriting - but why not make it a short-hand - subject/ mark against whatever criteria/ brief comment.

Maths - HIGH ACHIEVER - doing fantastically well and we're working hard to ensure s/he is stretched this year. Encourage your DC to use NRICH maths website more - this will really improve their problem solving skills.

Maths - LOW ACHIEVER - really struggling, please come in and we'll talk to you about what you can do at home to help him with multplication skills.

I suspect it isn't that difficult - it's more a matter of culture/ expectations and the fact that what is at issue for a school is percentage over NC L4 (soon to be 4b) at Key Stage 2 SATs - reporting clearly to parents gets you no rewards as a school and just may put more pressure on teachers, which I admit they don't need.

I remember attending a Maths Matters workshop in Year 4. By that point DD1 had made up lost ground and had nearly mastered her times tables - through lots of independent work at home (Maths Factors/ using library on My Maths/ board games/ card games/ Maths video games). So what they were saying wasn't news to me (because I'd done my homework on what a child really needed to know mathematically). However about 1/3 of parents there were completely surprised that by now their child should be starting to master all multiplication facts to x12. One parent was really angry - because she felt that if the school had told her this was important -say in September - rather than at this workshop in May - she could have been working on this at home during the school year. I fear that is the type of communciation we lowly parents frequently receive on the ground.

Of course hosting this little workshop to help parents of Year 4 so late in the year was insulting in and of itself (indeed I caused a little rebellion by encouraging many parents to say as much on our workshop comment form) - the point of the workshop wasn't informing parents/ working with them as partners in their children's education. The point of this little workshop was ticking that box of things a teacher needs to do during a year for her performance management monitoring internally at the school. At core she didn't give a toss what parents knew or didn't know about what should be covered in year 4 - it mattered for her performance review that she gave a workshop at some point in Year 4 and this timing was about what suited her - not her pupils or their parents.

The problem with schools continuing to use the old levels is that this gives a false impression of where your child now needs to be. For example, a child in year 3 was previously expected to be at roughly 2a/3c ( and I have to say roughly because, as mrz quite rightly said, each school would have its own expectations of how a child would get from the notional year 2 level of 2b and convert this into the notional year 4b in year 6!!) So if your current year 3 child is given a 3c you might consider they were doing fine! But the new expectations for year 3 are pitched higher than this so a child working at this level would be considered now to be below expectations!
A recent training course I went on explained that, for year 2 the new end of year objectives, whilst slimmed down in number, were mainly equivalent to the "old" level 3 in pitch-although they do not corrolate exactly!