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Is it time for maths textbooks in primary?

145 replies

PastSellByDate · 22/11/2014 09:30

Just saw this today: www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-30129639

As a parent - I would like text books (for one thing that's how I was taught) but with solutions to problems available, I can help my DDs understand their mistakes at the time (rather than feel I have to check problems without confirmation I have the correct solution, which I know puts many parents off interfering with maths homework) & I can also understand what's coming next (and support that at home - rather than vaguely understanding this term they'll be covering shape/ measurement/ calculation skills/ number facts - which says NOT A LOT).

One thing that did interest me about the BBC article was the fact that the government (?OFSTED) don't comment on/ validate quality of text books - it does seem rather a free-for-all and I'm not terribly convinced that most ordinary primary Heads of Maths are really qualified to make that judgement (yes as a teacher they can see what works best pedagogically/ structurally for their school - but I suspect assessing which mathematical approach is best would be problematic and I also wonder whether school budgets don't influence resource decisions).

Why exactly is it that the government - who seem very kind to prescribe elements of the national curriculum are less than keen to evaluate resources available to teachers/ parents? Should educational resources be entirely unregulated?

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PastSellByDate · 09/12/2014 09:59

mrz:

Look I think you've raised some good points - but they are only valid when there is a good teacher behind it.

I personally have experienced maths teaching which is chaotic/ poorly explained/ disjointed (Today is Tuesdsay we're doing M1 topic 5b - with little regard to whether the class understood 5a 2 months ago). I witness homeworks that come home after parental complaint (not mine I hasten to add - we gave up) which are literally the first resource which pops up if you type in KS2 chunking on Google or TES. (Fortunately it has meant that when DDs forget their homework we can usually find it - yes, Mommy, that was the sheet! Teacher's none the wiser that DDs forgot their homework in their drawer).

I totally get that there is fabulous maths teaching out there - but I suppose my question (or was it plea) is in the absence of that fabulous maths teaching would a well written text book fill that gap?

In short doesn't every child deserve good, maybe even excellent, maths teaching?

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PastSellByDate · 09/12/2014 10:04

mrz

Oh - forgot to say in terms of having the text book for teaching in class - I think most text books (at least US versions) come with on-line maths homework/ resources or with worksheets which can be multiply copied (copyright law allows this for educational purposes).

And that's how my brother - who is a specialist primary maths teacher - gets around it at his elementary school.

I take your point that some of your pupils are from improverished/ chaotic homes and things disappear - but that's not every child and I think most organisations would allow for a certain loss of books over time.

However mrz let's be clear - you're at a primary in Durham with a swimming pool (which you bragged about Y6 pupils swimming in before SATs to help them relax). Doesn't exactly sound like a struggling inner city school in Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle, Sheffield, etc... to me?

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mrz · 09/12/2014 17:17

Do I think a text book will make up for a poor teacher? No I'm afraid I don't believe that is the answer

mrz · 09/12/2014 17:30

No PSBD my school isn't a struggling inner city school it's a village school in an area of high social and economic depravation, where children arrive barely able to speak in their home language. Where teachers are feeding and clothing the pupils in their class and where pupils walk two miles in a blizzard because they know they will be warm, fed and safe!
The reason the local authority built the pool was because the pupils were considered "underprivileged" and funding was targeted to improve their lives.

mrz · 09/12/2014 17:32

Do you imagine that families who are unable to feed and clothe their children adequately have money to access the Internet?

AsBrightAsAJewel · 09/12/2014 17:52

It is a misconception that deprivation is only in inner cities, PastSellByDate. The levels of rural deprivation can be just as challenging, but often ignored or missed.

ZebraDog · 09/12/2014 19:01

I work in primary and am frustrated with the amount of worksheets just printed off the internet - they certainly aren't always good quality and IMO can lead to teachers dotting about and not following a good quality scheme of work.
I like how good textbooks have quality written explanations which children can refer back to if they are stuck - this promotes independence.
I hope more textbooks doesn't mean going back to the standard talk and chalk followed by repetitive practice questions. I like how maths has become more hands on and promoting real understanding rather than step-by-step methods (often without true understanding).

PastSellByDate · 10/12/2014 10:44

Look mrz it helps nobody to say my school has poorer children than yours - rural poor and worse off than urban poor, etc....

I do take the point that computer access is not available for everybody - solutions can include: letting children without computer come early/ stay late to use school computers. Giving them time during the day - during PE/ lunch/ assembly. Printing out homework sheets for pupils who can't access it on computer.

I think you do raise a very important issue - access to new technologies is becoming a divisive issue in education. Those with home computers/ tablets/ etc.... who can access learning resources are greatly advantaged.

There are solutions though - it's whether communities have the will.

-----

Zebra - I think you raise a very valid point.

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HarveySchlumpfenburger · 10/12/2014 11:00

Hang on. The issue of rural poor vs urban poor only came up because you tried to suggest mrz's school couldn't be disadvantaged because of where it was. It wouldn't even have come up as a topic of conversation if you hadn't mentioned it.

mrz · 10/12/2014 18:04

I thought that was exactly what you were doing with your struggling inner city school post PSBD ...

PastSellByDate · 11/12/2014 14:28

look I just made a glib response (based on experience here in Birmingham) that deposits or fines could be used to avert losing text books (which I floated in response to someone saying text books won't work because they'll go missing) - this included suggesting that text books would largely be in school and homework could be done on-line or by worksheet which resulted in mrz suggesting that many of her children don't have home computers. (I do wonder whether that's true if the question was do their parents have smart phones? a lot could be done using those)

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mrz · 11/12/2014 17:01

We actually sent out questionnaires to parents asking about access to the Internet PSBD so know from the responses exactly how many households don't have access to the Internet of any kind.

We did use e books for home reading but haven't renewed our subscription because parents are struggling to provide essentials never mind luxuries like the Internet.

AsBrightAsAJewel · 11/12/2014 21:18

I'm still a little confused as to what the pro-text bookers really want. Are they confusing a text book with a work book?

A text book is usually a large hard-backed book where children copy the calculation question into an exercise book, maybe showing their working out, create a bar chart, draw a shape, etc. So to say they want the text book going home do they mean they want the child carrying it backwards and forwards to school everyday along with reading book, water bottle, lunchbox, etc. That is really heavy. The text book will need to be in school every day for the child to work from, so the school will need plenty of spares for the ones left at home, on the bus, in dad's car (who they won't see again until next week), lost. The text book is of no use to show the parents what the child has done without the exercise book with their work in, so yet another book to get mislaid. Is it really worth the poor child carrying all that around every day for mum or dad to check up what is being taught and find out how they are doing? Plus there is the cost implication for the school - text books are close to £20 each, so for a class of 30, plus another 20 or so kept in school so children who have lost, forgotten, etc. can actually participate in that day's maths lesson - that is a lot of money for schools to find. If you then add into it the fact that some children would need the year bellow's text book and some the year above's and that the proportion of children in every cohort needing the non-standard textbook would mean another 20 or so ...

If they mean a workbook, all that is really is a collecting of non-differentiated worksheets made into a book, and we know the anti-worksheet issues!

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 12/12/2014 11:53

That's a good point. hat was talked about in the article were text books. What people are talking about here are work booksor pupil books I think. The text books Tim Oates describes as being what we should aim for have explanations of the maths but no exercises. The work books have exercises but no explanations and quite possibly no worked examples.

What people here want is some sort of amalgamation of the two I think. Which would be hugeand quite unwieldy I think.

PastSellByDate · 12/12/2014 12:53

Rafa:

I raised the 'text book' idea partly because of the guardian article - but partly because I have endlessly hit the 'NOT ALL FAMILIES HAVE ACCESS TO THE INTERNET THING' here in Birmingham - so I know that a modern technological solution (e.g. Khan academy maths: www.khanacademy.org/coach-res/reference-for-coaches/lasd/v/los-altos) just isn't going to be possible for the moment.

I get that sending a text book home (or related workbook) may result in the difficulties you raised - but guided reading books seem to make it home. The text book itself can be divided in volumes - if weight is the issue.

Personally what I'm after is:

glossary of terms (so parents are on the same hymn sheet as kids/ school)

worked examples - so we parents can refresh our memories about what we're doing here.

clear relationship between assigned homework & what is transpiring in class (neither of which was never particularly obvious at St. Mediocre) - so homework has purpose, drives skills/ concepts forward and ideally reviews concepts and goes on to provide challenge.

I also feel that for reasons I don't quite follow - maths isn't always a high priority (certainly wasn't at St. Mediocre) and as a result can be poorly organised/ designed. So a text book might give some structure to proposed progress across a given year.

and if you say this does or should be going on in all schools - please don't make me laugh...

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AsBrightAsAJewel · 12/12/2014 15:05

We don't send guided reading books home as they are part of a set required for a group of children during a guided reading sessions and when they are not in school on the child's group's guided reading session we have to ask them to share one book between two (not an ideal reading experience for actually teaching anything meaningful).

We do send home reading books that are for an individual child - if those are forgotten on a day when they should be reading one-to-one reading session with an adult we either shuffle round the rota so they read on another day, find another book on the same level to start or miss that child out for that week. This doesn't impact the rest of the class or hinder future sessions for them.

kesstrel · 12/12/2014 15:52

Here's a quote from a teacher about Finland's use of primary school textbooks - which I believe are soft cover and not too heavy - perhaps not intended to cover a whole year...plus interesting discussion

"I've just been looking at some sample pages of the maths textbooks used in primary schools in Finland. I'm so jealous. Every child gets their own book (free) to keep and write in. There are extra extension and support pages - there is homework - and it's so good. Why can't we have something like this? Oh yes, and Finnish children do FAR better than English children at maths in international league tables. "

community.tes.co.uk/tes_primary/f/36/t/616426.aspx

switswoo81 · 12/12/2014 16:12

i'm a primary teacher in Ireland and textbooks are the norm here. Very interested in the discussion here. I teach 3rd/ 4th class (9/10) year olds. Each child buys a soft copy textbook that they write in and also use a maths copy. Each week we do a new topic which is tested at the end of the week. High achievers are catered for using supplementary worksheets provided in the teacher pack. There are also worksheets for low achievers but generally they just do less of the sums very low achievers go out for Learning Support.Yearly/ termly plans are provided by the teacher pack as well as tests.As there is little planning I spend my time creating resources, games etc for the children.

In my opinion this works very well, we also have english, history, science, geography textbooks. Some are rented from school others are purchased.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 12/12/2014 19:02

But the reason the Finnish out perform us has very little to do with the text book. It has more to do with a government policy on bringing all children up to a minimum standard, I suspect. And I'm not sure that policy will go down that well on MN.

I am in no way against the use of textbooks. On the contrary I really like the Singapore ones. But it isn't true that we are going to improve maths attainment in this country by going back to text books. And there is no evidence to suggest this.

What would be better would be not using education policy to gain votes among a particular demographic but to base it on evidence based practice instead.

AsBrightAsAJewel · 12/12/2014 19:07

"low achievers go out for Learning Support" - with qualified teachers hopefully. We are working hard across our LA in reminding all schools that every child has a right to lessons with a teacher, not having that teaching delegated to a TA by sending them to another room for "support" instead of being taught within the classroom.

mrz · 12/12/2014 20:20

www.ncetm.org.uk/public/files/19990433/Developing_mastery_in_mathematics_october_2014.pdf I agree withdrawal is known to widen the gap and no longer considered to be good practice.

switswoo81 · 12/12/2014 23:41

we don't have ta's in Ireland so children only work with qualified teachers. Teachers over here dont have any time away from their class. Learning Support teachers are fully qualified and withdraw small groups for english and maths.
Very few children will need to go out but it works very well in my experience.

mrz · 13/12/2014 05:04

I'm afraid that isn't true for every school ... Academies and Free schools can employ unqualified teachers (only the SENCO must have QTS) and it's quiet common for children to be sent out if class with TAs for interventions.

TheNewStatesman · 13/12/2014 07:09

Here in Japan, there is a textbook for every subject including maths, and most lessons are textbook based, including in elementary schools. The Japanese education system has plenty of faults, but it does do a damn good job of teaching maths.

By contrast, many of the international schools herethe "western" ones, anyway (American, Canadian, Australian as opposed to Korean or Indian ones)don't use textbooks and seem to practically boast about this fact--like it means their teaching is somehow more imaginative or exciting or what have you. "Ah, we don't use textbooks here. Our teachers craft lessons from a rich library of resources," I was told by headmaster of one particularly oddball American-style school.

By the way, all these international schools are selective at some level, and have privileged, middle-class intakes consisting of well-motivated parents and kids. So I'm not buying this thing about "Oh, British schools can't use textbooks because they have such difficult and unmotivated student populations and can't trust kids with textbooks and the ability of students varies too widely for textbooks." I really think it's a cultural difference. English-speaking countries' teaching traditions just seem to be so anti-textbook--it really seems to be seen as a lesser way of teaching.

A friend of mine has a son at one of these schools, and the lack of textbooks has been a bit of a disaster, quite honestly. Endless grotty, dog eared worksheets coming home crumpled up at the bottom of the school bag, cluttering up the house, getting lost. She has no easy way of keeping track of what he has been doing or revising past content, so it was a long time before she was able to figure out that he was lacking in a lot of basic skills that he ought to have. Nor can she look ahead to see what will be coming up next. The whole curriculum exists only in the teacher's head, which is very disempowering and frustrating.

What I think is weird is that the anti-textbook people tend to be the same people who are always going on and on about "independent student-centered learning" and how teachers shouldn't be the fount of all knowledge and how students should develop their own strategies for this and that and so on. Okay, fine, but wouldn't an obvious first step to be to have a textbook that students and parents could use and refer to and check up on and revise from and do self-studying from? It is so unnerving for students to have so little sense of what is going on in the maths curriculum.

mrz · 13/12/2014 07:59

education report: the East is also looking west | via @Telegraph fw.to/YCJ8cpD why does it have to be either or?