Is it time for maths textbooks in primary?

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Just saw this today: www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-30129639

As a parent - I would like text books (for one thing that's how I was taught) but with solutions to problems available, I can help my DDs understand their mistakes at the time (rather than feel I have to check problems without confirmation I have the correct solution, which I know puts many parents off interfering with maths homework) & I can also understand what's coming next (and support that at home - rather than vaguely understanding this term they'll be covering shape/ measurement/ calculation skills/ number facts - which says NOT A LOT).

One thing that did interest me about the BBC article was the fact that the government (?OFSTED) don't comment on/ validate quality of text books - it does seem rather a free-for-all and I'm not terribly convinced that most ordinary primary Heads of Maths are really qualified to make that judgement (yes as a teacher they can see what works best pedagogically/ structurally for their school - but I suspect assessing which mathematical approach is best would be problematic and I also wonder whether school budgets don't influence resource decisions).

Why exactly is it that the government - who seem very kind to prescribe elements of the national curriculum are less than keen to evaluate resources available to teachers/ parents? Should educational resources be entirely unregulated?

That's not how it works at all littleRobots

Should add that taking longer in one aspect of maths doesn't mean you will find other aspects difficult.

Mrz - I agree that children find some aspects of maths harder than others, but if they do not understand certain concepts surely their ability to progress and understand other topics will be limited.

Some aspects rely on previous understanding but you don't need to know the properties of 3D shapes in order to calculate how much change you need?

But if you are struggling with the oneness of one then you aren't going to progress through a text book without lots of practical experience not lots of worksheets

I'm not impressed with the "developments" in the way maths is taught in primary schools as a whole - whether this is down to the National Curriculum or what all teachers/researchers have come up with. They are falling behind other countries in terms of basic numeracy in trying to achieve the "high standards". Long division, fractions and decimals are started much too late, in a bid to try to get children to do a lot of mental arithmetic early. This means that the schools are trying to produce a lot of Carol Vordermans, which is great for the kids who actually have that ability and/or the parental support/tutoring/resources to achieve that, but conversely those who aren't get left behind. Many will leave school still not able to do fractions or percentages accurately without a calculator - which could explain why the country has a lot of people with personal debt problems, because they have no idea how to calculate compound interest!

Sorry for being not being more optimistic!

Do you mean all those high performing countries where they teach fraction, decimals and percentages later so they can focus on calculating using mental and written strategies in the earlier years?

We've only fallen behind because we've stagnated while they have made big improvements, not because we've got worse. I'm not sure doing the opposite of what they've done is going to help much though.

And what is the approach to inclusion and repeating a year if the child doesn't pass the annual test in those high performing countries that use text books?

mrz:

I can totally sympathise with only a few parents sending something in leaving you with the impression - they don't support you/ they don't approve/ they don't care ....

but maybe it's just my home county in the US - but we used to get a note that said quite clearly if workbooks weren't filled in and returned by December 1st - your child wouldn't be allowed to take part in the Christmas play. If by May 1st the book had not been returned - your child would be held back for that academic year - or you would have to purchase a replacement.

Oddly enough - never had a problem. School system still uses this approach - but then they see all this equipment as purchased with taxpayers money and therefore as state workers they are obliged to ensure due care of public property.

I think that policy might depend on the school district where you lived, but it won't work everywhere. It would have worked where I taught, although it has to be said the text books and workbooks rarely went home despite giving maths homework 4 times a week. It might be different in later grades though I'm pretty sure they did in 3rd-5th grade

Definitely wouldn't have worked in the neighbouring school district. Every grading period a friend who worked in that school would pay for an activity- bowling, cinema trip, pizza party etc for children that had completed more than 50% of homework assignments. It was usually the same 2-3 children each period. Stuff that got sent home rarely got came back. And there's no way they would actually retain that many children for not returning a book.

but maybe it's just my home county in the US - but we used to get a note that said quite clearly if workbooks weren't filled in and returned by December 1st - your child wouldn't be allowed to take part in the Christmas play. Can you imagine the posts if school did this! It is not permitted as it is discrimination

If by May 1st the book had not been returned - your child would be held back for that academic year - another totally impossible empty threat.

There is nothing we can threaten parents with that is not discriminatory against a child (who is not the one at fault here so why should they suffer) if books are not returned. Plus it isn't a one off return, it is a text book or workbook/exercise book that is needed almost (or every) lesson, so you logic doesn't work here. If a child doesn't return or have their school / home reading book on reading day they just don't read with an adult that day - can't exactly say the same about attending a maths lesson.

In the UK we aren't allowed to exclude pupils from school activities for not reading at home PSBD

My dds last school used textbooks for Maths, and now she is H.ed she uses text books.
It isn't difficult to find out what topics are covered and what is involved with each topic, you can find this out quite easily.
So, if they are doing fractions at school you do this at home if you want to support. The n.c tells you what they should be doing/ capable of at each ks.
The only difference we found was that dd doesn't always use the same system as she was taught at school, but they can do it how they like as long as they can reach the right answer.

Rafa - no, not those. (but curious to know which countries you know of that put off teaching fractions, percentages and decimals even later than the UK).

Of all the young people, work employees, graduates and offspring of friends & relations I've come across, the UK's school leavers and pupils (apart from the star pupils who get 10As at GCSE and 5 As for A Levels) seem to be the only ones who struggle to do very basic arithmetic - eg cannot even calculate compound interest per year, let alone credit card interest per month - while those from Commonwealth and Asian countries can glance it, and give you a quick and accurate answer. The same goes for school work that the 6-9 year olds are doing. UK pupils seem to get a lot (Ok, that's maybe for another thread too!) but not gain the benefit of their labour. The only other country I know getting so much at a young age (6-9 years old) is the US, with the same results - not gaining as much as the amount would suggest.

Generally speaking,under the old curriculum fractions were introduced in yr 1/yr2, with children expected to find simple fractions of shapes and groups of objects and beginning to recognise simple equivalences (i.e. 1/2=2/4) by the end of KS1. Decimals were introduced in yr3/yr4 and percentages in yr 5.

Singapore doesn't touch fractions at all during P1, it focuses on place value, comparing, ordering and calculating with whole numbers to 100. It does introduce fractions at P2 (7-8 year olds) but doesn't deal with finding fractions of groups of objects/numbers until P4 (9-10 year olds), which is much later than the UK. Decimals are also introduced at P4 and Percentages at P5.

Japan is not a million miles away from introducing topics at similar. Decimals are introduced a year earlier at about the same age that they would be in the UK, and as far as I know they don't exclude the teaching of finding a fraction of a number until 9-10 years old.

There is a problem but I'm not sure it has anything to do with the UK introducing topics later. Even allowing for differences in school start age and preschool experience What is introduced and progression of skills along with a bunch of other unrelated stuff probably has more of an effect. Which is why just importing other countries' curriculums as they are won't solve he issue.

I see - thanks for your input.

In the Netherlands, primary teachers teach solely using text books.

It is brilliant because it means you can put teachers in front of the class who barely understand the material they are supposed to teach, so you can save a lot of money on teachers.

In the UK you would be able to let the teaching assistants do the teaching and get rid of all experienced, more expensive, teachers. It is the start of total deskilling of a profession.

In the Netherlands they have totally mastered this. The majority of trainee teachers fail a very basic numeracy and literacy test for 11 year olds. Teachers no longer understand simple mathematic procedures and if there are mistakes in the answering books, good answers are marked as wrong as they just check answers with the answer books with zero thinking involved. Shocking, but then again, it is cheap, much cheaper.

And what do they do if the text book page is, say, a multi-step problem solving involving multiplication and several children are still working on understanding numbers to 10, LemonySnug ? Especially if the "teachers" have so little understanding of the pedagogy behind the concepts I doubt they can back-track in skills progression. I thought the Netherlands was a country being held up as how we should be doing it!

First the teacher explains how to do the sum focusing on 'average' level children (basically reading out what is in the text book). She will do a few sums on the white board demonstrating how it should be done as set out in the text book. Children are then making sums themselves, either individually or in pairs. The below average children will sit at the table of the teacher and she does the sums with them.

In dd's class (would be UK year 4) the majority doesn't know times tables up to 10 and have great difficulty translating digital times into analogue and vice versa. This is a school which is considered outstanding and 70 per cent of the kids are expected to go to university given parental backgrounds etc.

Children like dd, who knows times tables, clocks, fractions etc. are simply bored to death. They have to sit through all the boring explanations, are not allowed to already start working as 'they would finish all their work books much too quickly, and we don't want that, do we?'

So no one but the children who are struggling get to work with the teacher . Those who the work is way beyond, sit getting bored (and maybe disruptive) as they don't understand a thing, those like your DD make the progress they are capable of because the teacher aims the work at whatever the text book says are the "average" children and doesn't teach new concepts to those who are already highly skilled in the standard work.

And they think that will improve standards!

That's right. This is why the Netherlands tends to score very high in league tables. They have fewer below average and lots of kids at average level, which is what PISA measures. They are not interested in 'above' average, in most cases it is regarded as a nuisance and very inconvenient for the teacher. This is why you have institutions like Oxford, Cambridge etc. in the UK but not in the Netherlands. Here the focus is on the average, not on excellence.

Also, kids who cannot keep up with the average will have to repeat the year (they can repeat twice during the primary school career and if still can't keep up they have to go to 'special' education). Kids who are too bright are obliged to skip a whole year (not having done any of the work of that year, they totally skip all the material). Of course, it doesn't solve the issues, because the child is still clever and will still grasp the material much quicker than the average child.

In the Netherlands, the law was recently changed, so now it is solely the judgment of the teachers which determines which secondary school the child goes to. Secondary schools are highly streamed and if you don't enter the right stream it will be very difficult to get into university.

Having in depth experience with both systems, I think the UK system is far superior. True, there are some poorly performing schools in the UK, but there are also many outstanding schools. However, for an average child, the Dutch system may be preferable.

mrz

I was talking about a maths workbook - not a reading book.

But in UK I was charged for a reading book my child actually turned in - which eventually we relocated (just hadn't been ticked off a list and then had be given to another child).

Right now DD1 Y7 has been given a science book and I had to sign a form saying that if it was not returned I would pay £25 for its replacement.

So it is happening in the UK...although I take your point that holding back progression isn't there - until University where very definitely if you have outstanding fines/ books checked out - you cannot matriculate.

So was I PSBD then the conversation moved on ... Do you think I have a better chance of getting a maths text book returned so we can use it the next day?

If I'm feeding and clothing kids in my class from my own money do you think I should charge their parents for reading books?

I would be surprised if the school bothered to chase that £25 if you didn't return the book or pay the fine. It's probably there as an empty threat for the more conscientious parents who would return the book anyway.

TBH getting some of the children into school everyday with something approaching appropriate clothing that fits and maybe a bookbag if I was lucky was enough of a challenge. I could have sent as many letters for £25 home as I liked but it wasn't going to result in either books or money. And there's not much I or the school could have done about it.