Help: Reception Teacher unhappy with DD

[whichway]

Hello all,

I would welcome any thoughts on the following issue. Apologies in advance about the length of my post.

DD is a June baby so she is one of the youngest (thought not the youngest) in her Reception class. Her school is ranked Outstanding and has a reputation for being quite pushy. They have a very small number of students with special needs and students who come from minority/ non British backgrounds.

Let me say right away that DD can be challenging to deal with. She is very sweet and affectionate, she loves the company of both grown ups and children, and LOVES attention. But she simply will not abandon an activity of her choosing for another which she may find boring or unpleasant.
Reward charts and time outs don't really work with her.

Her teacher has been telling me pretty much from the start that she doesn't do as she is told. I asked her to give DD some time to adjust to school life since she has had very little nursery experience. She gave her a month and then said she needed "extra help " (basically senco, but they call her the "inclusion teacher").
The first thing the inclusion teacher tells me is DD has a speech delay and a delay in her expressive language. Not "might have", but "has" a delay. I am shell shocked at this point because DD is very chatty and confident, and I never thought she had a speech delay. Anyway, I am quiet and don't argue at all, and simply go home and book an appointment with the GP and we are currently on the waiting list for a NHS assessment. Meanwhile I know something just isn't right. So I find a private speech therapist. She is fully qualified, and works for the NHS during the week, and privately during the w/e. She meets DD and has a 90 minutes session. She thinks DD is absolutely fine. No delay whatsoever. She says she is confident that no NHS therapist would find a single thing wrong with her.
DD does have an issue with paying attention and doing as she is told, so the therapist suggested ways in which parents and teachers could help. For instance by placing her closest to the teacher at carpet time (she currently sits in the back corner).

So I gave Dd's teacher the report written by the therapist, and she has been avoiding me ever since. She no longer greets me at the door, and avoids making eye contact with me , even when I am standing right there at drop off and pick up time. I am giving it until the end of the week, and then I am going to ask her if she read the report.

I can't shake off the feeling she wants DD to have special needs, because she doesn't want to deal with her and to give the inclusion teacher something to do, since there are extremely few true SEN children in school. I think she is resentful that I hired a private therapist and dared to question their "diagnosis" of DD's "delay". I feel that when the NHS therapist says DD doesn't have a speech delay, they will find something else wrong with her.

I believe DD is emotionally immature, but I don't see a reason why she would not outgrow her current behavior. Is it really necessary to "medicalise" and put labels on a child who is simply disobedient? DD doesn't exhibit any violent tendencies, she has never had an argument with another child at school. She has learned to raise her hand if she has a question ( which is a big thing for her), so she does not disrupt the class while the teacher is talking. She is very slowly but surely learning the school routines. Even her teacher admits she has improved since September, but she is not improving fast enough.

What are your thoughts?

OP. No real advice here but sympathy from me as dd is younger (just started preschool) but I have some of the same issues in that I keep getting feedback that she doesn't listen or follow instructions. I know she is very wilful and doesn't ever always do as she is told, but I thought these were the sorts of things she would learn throughout nursery and reception, rather than expecting the finished article at just turned three. I'm also a bit concerned that if she is pushed too hard before she is ready she might be put off school altogether. I haven't had a proper meeting yet either but hope to soon.

I don't mean be nasty to the child northernlurker just that there are a lot of teachers who are surprisingly wishy washy about making it clear for the children what they should and shouldn't do. it could be that the teacher is very clear about 'sit cross legged and put your hand up if you want to speak' but very unclear about 'in 5 minutes all of you need to put your game/toy/book away and come and sit down'. So could this be the problem that the teacher isn't making it clear enough and is just saying 'oh could you now pack up so we can...' not 'we need to pack up now because we have to go to assembly in 3 minutes. They ought to have a sort of pictorial timetable up I think as certainly all the schools I have been into tend to do this and if they give the children an early warning that they will be changing activity and why then it doesn't come as a surprise to them. And if the teacher is a very 'soft' foundation year teacher then she may just speak very softly and request things rather than actually say that now they are doing x, y or z. So what I mean by being firmer is being more in control of the classroom.

nonicks, Its funny because the example you made about asking the child to do something right now as opposed to in 5 minutes, and the need to be specific in giving instructions is one of the techniques the speech therapist suggested.
I have no idea about the kid of tone they use with the children. If it is softy, softy or not. But I did ask dd's teacher once if she had ever tried speaking a bit more firmly with DD, and she said yes.
From my own experience with her, it honestly doesn't matter that much. Even when I use a certain tone with her it will still take one or two reminders for her to do something.

A poster mentioned dyslexia. I thought about it when they mentioned her "delay" because one of Dh's sisters has it, so I thought there might be a genetic component, even though DH is not dyslexic.

I did mention this to the inclusion teacher, the teacher, an the therapist. I am not sure how dyslexia would manifest this early on. She seems to be doing fine with her letters so far. She can read 3 and sometime 4 letter words (mostly words she has learned by heart rather than phonically), and has started to blend sounds. I have no idea, maybe it is too early to tell. The speech therapist did not seem to think she has dyslexia.

Perhaps at the meeting ask how the teacher gives instructions. If I wanted to get My pfb to do something I always used a direct clear order, otherwise, at 4, he wouldn't comply. His teacher often asked if he would like to do X or Y. He used to say no and not realise he was being naughty, well tbh , he wasn't, he needed a bit more maturity before he understood. The teacher changed tactics and told him he must do X or Y now. And I tried to emphasise how important it was to do what you are told at school. And this was successful except when he was tired towards the end of the school day. It took a few meetings with the teacher to sort this out though.

There is evidence that there's a genetic link with dyslexia.
I'm not sure if they would diagnose dyslexia this early, possibly not. People think of dyslexia as difficulty reading and spelling but it's much more complex than that. It can include processing difficulties (so difficulties following instructions), short term memory problems, difficulty organising thoughts. It's worth considering.

It is not nice when someone says something is wrong with your child. Its very tempting to shoot the messager. Please don't be scared of seeing the SENCO, they are trying to help your daughter.

I can suggest that you have your daughter's hearing tested. If your daughter has glue ear then that might explain her bad behaviour and not following instructions in a noisy class room. It might also explain why she passed the speech and language assessment which would have been done one to one in a quiet room. I would also suggest getting an eyesight test done. Glue ear or short sightedness is easily treatable.

Hi having seen my wild 4 year old boy in reception calm down greatly into a pleasant Year 1 child I can sympathise. Agree, I wouldn't waste any time taking offense, arrange a calm meeting to discuss specific examples of behaviour that they have. Having said that, I do think 4 is still so young!

Op you are making excuses for her not doing as she is told. Stubborn, is not a good thing. 4/5 times being asked to do something! Do you think teacher has time to do that with every child

It often takes 4-5 times calling her name and repeating the instructions for her to do something she doesn't want to do
I'm not surprised the teacher has got the Senco involved. Being a summer born child will not account for that, I'm afraid. One of mine has a late August birthday which hasn't caused any problems at all.

I think that some of you are being a little hard on the OP. It is emotionally hard when someone says that your child needs intervention. Giving a child early help through an IEP at the age of four will prevent problems later.

This thread makes me think of a friend of mine. It has been suggested her child may have some SEN but she refuses to look into it further. Not because she sees any shame in it but just because she has found strategies that work.
We were discussing it during half term and she has said she has given the teacher these strategies to deal with this behaviour. I pointed out as others have done on this thread that the teacher has many other children to deal with and cannot spend South of their time managing one child's behaviour.

The same here the teacher cannot be expected to focus the amount of attention you are saying yourself it requires to manage your dd's behaviour. This is why she has asked the inclusion teacher to become involved. This willaybe help support the class teacher in managing the things you know to be a problem already.

The latest posts seem to miss the point. The OP has acknowledged her dd's behaviour can be challenging - she is questioning the assumption that this means she has developmental delay. I don't see how the two are necessarily linked. My dd is very wilfull and has been since she was 1 year old. There are good things about this - she is confident and unruffled by new challenges - but I fully admit she needs harnessing and polishing before she'll get the most out of school. That's a difficult job for me and her teachers - probably more challenging than teaching a shy and compliant child would be - but it doesn't mean she should be dismissed as too problematic to deal with. Would SENCO really be able to help, or is that just trying to medicalise a set of behaviours that are not properly classed as SEN?

OP's dd may not have any development problems.

It may be ok for her to sit near the teacher etc and all will be fine.

Or she may have some underlying problem, and this may act as a sticking plaster for the moment. Then, there will be something else.

It is not the wrong thing to do this, but other possibilities will need to be looked at at the same time. The earlier you do this, the earlier things can be done to minimise the effect.

I knew a girl in my dds' class who, if you met her aged 5, and had had contact with a lot of people with ASD type problems, you would have thought . Her parents refused SEN help due to the 'labelling' issues. They got in a tutor and have done everything they can for her. They got her moved to the front of the class for hearing problems, and sent in letters to school all the time. Even at college they visit weekly and take her to the supermarket. The labelling happened anyway and she had really massive social problems all the way through high school. She is a very precious only child and they have been there every step of the way and more, she is at college and doing ok, so far. Hopefully, her parents will get her a job and she will be happy.

My son had very hidden ASD problems which I was worried about from him being a toddler. He has always been well behaved and is intelligent and hides it well. I have always been 'assured' he was 'ok' He has all the right exams, but not quite as well as he should have which was put down to laziness. It was not until 6th form that one teacher realised that he was looking like he understood but not necessarily taking stuff in. This was too late and we did not get an assessment. He has flunked uni and is unemployed and I can't get him out of his bedroom.

It is not so much about what they are doing and what looks normal from the outside. It is how their brains are working on the inside, how they are interpreting what is going on around them and how they are coping with it.

Another friend's daughter has dyslexia and dyspraxia and other problems that go with it. She had help all the way through school. She had help getting her exams done. She has been to college where all the work done by learning support to get her to find ways round problems has stood her in good stead and she did well, and is now working, has confidence and has proved she can stand up for herself.

Please don't blame the teacher for getting support from the SENCO. Work with them. It sounds like your child is pretty difficult and when you have 29 others it's not just about your child. It might be ok for you to ask several times for something to be done but what if you had 30 children being stubborn and needing that too. It's tough being a teacher. Your child is your gorgeous baby but to the teacher they are one of 30 to be cared for, taught, nurtured, progress to be made etc.

"That said, I am not going to sit with my hands in my lap while they diagnose DD with something she doesn't have (speech delay), because her teacher is looking for an excuse to pass the hot potato to someone else. If the teacher needs extra help because DD is immature and a PITA , I am fine with it, but I think they need to give her a chance to grow up before they label her as SEN. "

With regards this, FWIW, I feel it is a valid concern as a disproportionate amount of summer born children are diagnosed with SENs. I dont' have the stats to hand but it is in the summerborn literature (see Facebook summerborn flexibility campaign if you are interested).

In my experience some teachers us a 'label' as an excuse. And the lack of a label as an excuse. And lax and ineffective parents as an excuse.

I see nothing wrong with going down the SEN route. It is not a bad thing. Some people do not even get a formal diagnosis, but get extra help where it is needed. I gives the parents insight as to what is going on. They can find out more, get help elsewhere etc. You can have intervention early on and there will be no more problems and never know whether the early intervention helped or was unnecessary. But if you don't, you will know too late that it was needed.

to the teacher they are one of 30 to be cared for, taught, nurtured, progress to be made etc..

This is totally fine and of course it's best not to be closed minded to whether there are any problems that SENCO could help with. I don't think the OP is though - she didn't dismiss the suggestion - she sought a medical opinion.

What isn't fine is if the teacher dismisses every child who doesn't fit the mould as impossible to work with. Mumsnet is always a bit too deferential to teachers. They do a difficult job but they are not infallible - this teacher has handled a sensitive conversation very badly imo.

Stubborn is not a good thing. Well, this is a matter of opinion. It's certainly a PITA, for a parent as much as anyone, but it's not altogether a bad thing to have a strong sense of self. I was an obedient and compliant child - every teacher's dream - but a bit of dd's assertiveness would stand me in better stead as an adult. Deference to authority isn't the only thing in life that is valuable. What I hope is that dd's teachers and I can harness and tame her so she accepts authority but not unquestioningly. What I don't want is for her to be crushed and turned off school and learning altogether - and I think there is a greater risk of this for a Summer-born child who hasn't got the emotional maturity to deal with all aspects of school yet.

Stubborn is completely different to having a strong sense of self or being assertive though isnt it?

Stubborn is completely different to having a strong sense of self or being assertive though isnt it?

Yes - my DS is expert at this. We call it 'shooting himself in the foot'. He will not do something because someone else wants him to do it. This outweighs any sensible assessement of whether it will be a good thing for him.

I think the age is relevant but it mustn't be seen as a reason for everything, this can hide issues and therefore delay diagnosis/ support, further disadvantaging the younger children in the year group.

I started school at just turned 4 almost 35 years ago so it isn't that new a development dc going to school in September after in my case a late august birthday.

I also think it's interesting that dd last year was in a young reception class, they are now mixed in year 1 and the older ones don't seem further ahead at all.

op make an appointment with her teacher and talk to her

beginnerrunner well it's on a spectrum imo. Yes, ignoring authority for the sake of it if it carried on in later life is likely to lead to disruptive and volatile behaviour, but what the op describes isn't contrariness, it's ignoring the teacher's instructions because she doesn't want to follow them. Which I suppose could ne down to a sen but it might well not be.

My dd sounds like yours; she will be 4 in December; she does have a speech delay though and is having speech therapy; her nursery is not worry as she is learning two languages; on the other hand I do worry it might be something else like Dyslexia. I will be happy to have school/nursery looking into things more seriously and not just thinking she will outgrow it and discover something later on. I still don't know whether it is personality or something else; she saw the paediatrician a couple of times and they discharged her with a speech therapy diagnosis. I would not totally dismiss the school opinion and will arrange a meeting to discuss it further; they have worked, seen many children and have experience. I will be happy to have some extra help for my dd.

I would be interested what happened eventually. I have had a bad experience of this also and I do feel sometimes they want a few children to have some "extra" needs even if they don't have just that they can show they are doing something. I would be very cautious of any teacher who is trying extra hard to put a label on a child very early on and without evidence.

From this, I don't think it is speech delay but that the school spotted receptive speech & language issues. Google it- speech is about producing sounds/talk and also receiving. It sounds like you can see this but I think the issue here is simply imagining the label 'speech delay' to mean the way she talks. It sounds like there may be an issue with her processing. Lap up all the help you can get- these things are often small issues which are nipped in the bud with lots of early intervention. Brilliant the teacher spotted something isn't quite right. Remember she has 30 children in front of her, year after year. Teachers tend to quickly 'know' something needs extra help as they have so much more comparison than we do. Most children also comply fairly well once in a school setting as there are clear boundaries and peer effect all the other children tend to be following the instructions too. Reception teachers will be very aware of what is normal/occasional not following and what is a concern. So it does sound like you DD needs a little help following instructions better.

I think you are very hung up on her 'being labelled'. You think she is just a PITA. They think she may have some additional needs. First, the school cannot diagnose any conditions or disabilities. They can suggest your child may need extra help. I would stop worrying about her being diagnosed with 'speech delay'. If they had said communication difficulties, would you have felt better?
I would also take the SALT report less as the gospel. The therapist spent a couple of hours max with your child one to one and also based some of their report on what you said. If they had seen her in the classroom, they may have said something different. You also need to know that most schools do not want to be finding children who have extra needs. You do not want to push back so hard on this and then find at the end of reception or y1 that you are having to go back and ask for assessments and extra support.