Ability levels

[wishiwasonthebeach]

Do teachers tell parents which ability level table children are working on?

My son is in year 1 and I know that each table has an animal name, I imagine that they must be working in ability sets but I have no idea what sort if level he is on.

Parents evening was very general, the teacher mostly told me what they have been working on and some targets for literacy. When I tried to find out more about my son in particular she was quite dismissive. I don't know if I should ask her about the tables arrangement or if that's not appropriate.

[mrz]

The problem being there are no national expectations (except for end of KS)

[Bunnyjo]

But I completely fail to see any benefits of telling parents where their children rank within the class. The only people who seem to think this is a good idea are those who are pretty sure their kids would be near the top.

I am not one of those people, though I imagine that you're right; those with children at the 'top' of the class are more likely to want to know this information than those with children nearer the 'bottom'.

I can be certain that my DD is near the top of her cohort; she was one of 3 Year 1 children streamed from the Reception/Year 1 class into the Year 2/3 class. However, I wouldn't be impressed if DD's teacher gave me that kind of class information; top of the class in one school could be bottom of the class in another school.

Equally, knowing what level (or whatever individual schools decide to replace levels with) alone is meaningless too. Knowing that my DD is a 3a (or 1c, or 5a) does not tell me what parts of the curriculum DD is secure in and what she needs to focus upon/consolidate.

[mamadoc]

Isn't there any concept of confidentiality in teaching?

I'm a ward Dr and patients do ask me questions about the other folk on the ward. Sometimes for horrid reasons, sometimes genuine concern but I can tell them nothing at all about it. Which is just as it should be. Mind your own beeswax

I would massively object to teachers telling other parents what group my DC are in or where they rank in class. We can all read small print upside down but I would never consider doing it.

Why do people have to compare to others like this. At parents evening next week I will be asking the teacher whether I should be concerned about DDs spelling and maths which to me seem poor vs her reading and writing and how can I help her improve. It just would not occur to me to ask or care where she is in the class or try to stick a meaningless number on it.

I can't believe people think it is ok to be nosey about other kids. For me it is on a par with asking about someone's health or their income. Just rude.

[mrz]

Teachers cannot discuss other pupils with parents. So they could tell a parent their child is in the high/mid/low ability group but not the names of other children in the group(of course the child could tell their parents who is in their group if they are seated by ability) ... But then top group in one class could well be bottom group in another class so it's pointless information. Any teacher who has information about other pupils visible (upside down ) is very careless and leaving themselves open to discipline action

[Meita]

I can see a genuine reason (in some few cases) for wanting to know how my child is doing compared to other children. If my child were a lone struggler, or a lone high flyer, I would want to know. Even if my child were, absolutely seen, bang on target with individual progress, and/or with national expectations.

Because in such a situation I would want to support my child with the social/psychological sides that come with working at a different level than anybody else in the class.

As long as teachers would tell me only if my child had been making adequate progress, I could never know this, and it would therefore be hard to work (in partnership with the school) at those possible issues. I might very well fail to understand why my child was so terribly lacking in confidence, for instance, and therefore might unwittingly compound the problem.

[mrz]

A teacher could tell you all that without mentioning ability levels or other pupils

[AmateurSeamstress]

Meita I think they would tell you that. DC1 pootled along in the middle and I never knew what was going on really - what teacher is going to tell you that she is ranked 17th out of 30? It would be meaningless. Meeting targets etc is about all you can say. Whereas with DC2 there were lots of sentences containing the words "more able", I know he's in a small reading group, and how it helps him socially that the others have picked up on his maths skills.

I am surprised about your disciplinary comment though mrz. Our maths groups are always up on the wall. Circles, triangles and hexagons - not exactly a tough code to crack.

[Meita]

Well if the teacher tells me that my child is working at a significantly lower level than everybody else in their class, then the teacher would indirectly be telling me something about the levels the other kids are working at.

But if the teacher just said - your child struggles with confidence issues, try supporting his/her confidence at home please.
So my child does well at something and I give lots of praise and point out to him or her how well they did, I praise the effort, say stuff like 'look, all your hard work, it really paid off, see how well you did!' But my child (unlike me) knows that all their friends did so much better, so learns a) even when they work hard/make a lot of effort, they are not as good as others; and b) that my praise means nothing. Their confidence drops further, just because my efforts to increase their confidence are based on incomplete understanding of the situation leading to the lack of confidence in the first place.

[BarbarianMum]

No, what is it?

[mrz]

How does naming the groups triangles, squares etc provide you with details of other children's actual attainment AmatuerSeamstress?

[AmateurSeamstress]

Mrz you said you can't tell parents what group other children children are in, and that giving out "information about other pupils visible" would be opening themselves up to disciplinary action. I must have mistaken what you meant by that.

[AmateurSeamstress]

Babarianmum - glad it's not just me!

[mrz]

No I didn't AmatuerSeamstress I said a teacher can't tell parents the names of the other children in the same ability group.

[ChocolateWombat]

Whilst it is important for children to have individual targets, I think it is also reasonable for parents to want to know where they sit within their class, or compared to any national standards being used at the time. Parents like to know if their children are average, above or below in certain areas. How can they know if for example, Grammar school might be appropriate for their children, or to push for some extra help. Parents rely on school for accurate information, in order to play their role in helping and supporting their children. If school is a partnership between school and parents, why can't this information be shared easily?
I think many parents like to know this. Some schools are happy to give the info or volunteer it, but others are so secretive and make getting the information very difficult, which I think is hugely irritating to many parents.

In my experience, it has been younger teachers who are unwilling or very cautious about telling parents roughly where their children sit within a class or year group,min different areas. Older, more experienced teachers will often happily give that information if asked for it. Perhaps they are more confident in their own judgements.

I guess with the end of NC Levels, it will be harder still for parents to know how their children are performing against national standards, if the school is unwilling to answer questions. At least, people who were interested in such things knew that a L2 at end of KS1 was the expected level, so you knew if they got L3 they were a bit ahead and if L1 a bit behind. It is helpful to know that kind of stuff, in terms of adjusting your own expectations, but also perhaps too, how you approach the way you support your child.

[AmateurSeamstress]

Mrz: "No I didn't AmatuerSeamstress I said a teacher can't tell parents the names of the other children in the same ability group."

Yes, which i mistakenly took to mean that a teacher can't /shouldn't have displayed on the wall a list of the children in each group, this making it patently clear the names of the children in the same ability group. My apologies for misinterpreting, can we just leave it there?

[AmateurSeamstress]

Thus, even

[TheHouseonHauntedHill]

choclate

If school is a partnership between school and parents, why can't this information be shared easily

It can be, many teachers do just this. They view us as their ally which if we want to be we are.

Some teachers just seem to treat parents with disdain, and let personal emotions get in the way.
We are their clients as our children are. We should be treated as such.
Every teacher knows when going into the job, you have to deal with parents.

I just want transparency and clear info when I ask for it, I don't want to prod round trying to pick my way through the minefield to simply understand my dc ability,

thankfully our teachers seem to be keen to get us on board and do seem able to give out clear info.

Thus far.

Must be a tremendous power trip for some teachers, sitting there watching squirming parents, trying to find the right words to say to un lock the door of information about their child.

[mrz]

Parents are entitled to information about their own child/children. They are not entitled to information about the other children in the class except in very general terms.
How would you feel if your child's teacher was discussing your child with other parents?

[CatKisser]

Must be a tremendous power trip for some teachers, sitting there watching squirming parents, trying to find the right words to say to un lock the door of information about their child.
Really? Really?! I've worked with a lot of teachers and I've never encountered one who'd sit at parents' evening getting off on Mr and Mrs Jones floundering in front of them. What an odd suggestion.

[mrz]

It makes a teachers life much easier if a child has supportive parents who are willing to work with the school so it's quite laughable to think that they deliberately withhold information that would benefit all.

[WhereTheWildlingsAre]

Thehouse, given that the teachers you have, thankfully seemed to be keen to get you on board thus far, it's a wonder that you have met enough of the smug teachers on the ego trip to make such a damagingly sweeping statement.

[Hakluyt]

"Some teachers just seem to treat parents with disdain, and let personal emotions get in the way. "

Really? How do you know if yours have all been so good?

[ChocolateWombat]

I do not want to know any information about other children, in a specific sense.

I have asked before about the table system, something along the lines of 'could you tell me if MiniWombat is sitting at the highest ability level table for numeracy' to be told, that the teacher really doesn't want to tell me that.

Or if I have asked, roughly where MiniWombat is in terms of the ability level of the class I have been told that the teacher doesn't think in those terms, only in terms of individual targets and progress.

I have found it hugely ridiculous and said I would write to the Head for the information......which I then did, and received the information. But, why the struggle in the first place to get the info? This was a new teacher, whoI guess had been encouraged not to OFFER the info about where a child sat in terms of ability or performance in certain areas, but had taken this to mean that the information should be withheld.
Other more experienced teachers, would happily answer the question (in the same school) saying something like MiniWombat was in the 2nd group for literacy or working around the middle of the class for Maths. That was good enough for me. It was all I wanted to know.
And I realise that info on its own wasn't hugely useful without a sense of what the class was like.....however, my child was existing inside that particular class at that point in time, so even without more info about the class itself, I found it useful.

In Years 1 and 2, I was also keen to know about current NC Levels and what they thought child was capable of at the end of the KEy Stage.....again, resistance in giving this info from some teachers. I would write and ask.
And I knew a couple of parents who were told throughout KS1 that little Jonny was doing fine......to discover at the end of KS1 that he was getting L1. The areas of difficulty he faced, had been described in such vague terms, and his progress always described as 'fine' so the parents had believed it, but were totally shocked when it came to the end of the phase.
I realise teachers cannot predict exactly, but I think they can comment on current performance (even without levels anymore.....even expected, exceeding etc is better than nothing) and roughly where they think children will get to.

[ChocolateWombat]

And here's a question for teachers, in the post-Levels phase we are now in.

How are schools going to be judged in terms of whether pupils have made satisfactory progress with their children, if there are no levels? How will the gov know if children have made satisfactory, or good progress?

Thanks to anyone who can tell me this.

[mrz]

Just as they are now except progress will be measured from entry to reception to the end of KS2 by the use of on entry assessments and end of KS2 tests.