Ability levels

[wishiwasonthebeach]

Do teachers tell parents which ability level table children are working on?

My son is in year 1 and I know that each table has an animal name, I imagine that they must be working in ability sets but I have no idea what sort if level he is on.

Parents evening was very general, the teacher mostly told me what they have been working on and some targets for literacy. When I tried to find out more about my son in particular she was quite dismissive. I don't know if I should ask her about the tables arrangement or if that's not appropriate.

[AsBrightAsAJewel]

jacobibatoli - Yes, I agree all those things are useful for parents and can easily be shared. You have obviously had a poor experience but all the teachers I know can do all that. But not one of them needs the teacher to identify table groups, ability groups or class rankings which is the main thrust of the discussion on this thread.

Just the last two of your points need further discussion IMO.
and then the alignment to whatever benchmarks are available - benchmarks for Year 2 & Years 6 have only just been released as a draft, consultation document, so nothing is really available yet. Those years are the only two that can and will be compared nationally, so really the only two that are any use in comparing your child with national.

in the intervening non-benchmark years I would expect the school to provide a meaningful measurement in between those end-stops - this will probably come with time, but considering the government threw up its hands in despair at understanding how to do this - hence stating it is leaving individual schools to identify other assessment it is hardly surprising many LAs are telling schools not to spend hours and hours inventing their own but to "watch this space until something more concrete is decided".

[diamondage]

Interesting discussion.

Of course, if schools just followed the DfEs new Assessment Principles, i.e. the DfEs guidance on this matter, then there would be far fewer, if any, posts of this kind on MN.

It's quite succinct and includes the requirement to track pupils on their journey towards end of key stage expectations, covers both qualitative and quantitative assessments, and early identification of pupils who are ahead along with those falling behind. I especially love point d, why would they need to explicitly say that? .

Perhaps if parents were better informed about what the DoE expectations are regarding the assessment of their DCs, ALL schools would start to provide this level of information. Sadly these principles are only recommended, therefore presumably not statutory. More's the pity, however for new parents at least it's another question you can ask of prospective schools.

Here are the main points: -

Give reliable information to parents about how their child, and their child’s school, is performing:
a. Allow meaningful tracking of pupils towards end of key stage expectations in the new curriculum, including regular feedback to parents.

b. Provide information which is transferable and easily understood and covers both qualitative and quantitative assessment.

c. Differentiate attainment between pupils of different abilities, giving early recognition of pupils who are falling behind and those who are excelling.

d. Are reliable and free from bias.

Help drive improvement for pupils and teachers:
a. Are closely linked to improving the quality of teaching.

b. Ensure feedback to pupils contributes to improved learning and is focused on specific and tangible objectives.

c. Produce recordable measures which can demonstrate comparison against expected standards and reflect progress over time.

Make sure the school is keeping up with external best practice and innovation:
a. Are created in consultation with those delivering best practice locally.

b. Are created in consideration of, and are benchmarked against, international best practice.

[AsBrightAsAJewel]

Most schools I know are looking at that document, diamondage but an assessment system doesn't come into being overnight. With no guidance and teachers already working long hours to get the actual curriculum in place many schools are holding out for published systems or LA support. We are awaiting the updates on our assessment manager software, which we hope will do all that - but until the company has it completed and available we are continuing with robust AfL (Assessment for Learning - i.e. identifying what children can do and then planning next steps). If the software doesn't do that we will have to review what else is out there that will, discuss cost implications with the governors, maybe buy it, train all teachers on how to use it ... not a short job.

All this means data at an October parents evening is just not possible. I can say their child is making steady progress with the statements in the Upper KS2 Writing Programme of Study, identifying which we have covered and achieved, which they struggle with and which I have yet to teach. The same goes for Y5 maths (and which aspects of the new Y4 maths curriculum I am still working on). None of which is numerical data or tracking progress; we need back-data under the new system to track progress or set targets in individual year groups. I can make broad assumptions e.g. if a child achieved a 3C+ in Year 2 on the old curriculum they should achieve "Mastery" at Y6 in the new curriculum.

I think the recommendation of school-based localised systems will just lead to more MN posts as parents try to put a single school's system (which many will not trust, just like SATs and old NC levels were scrutinised and challenged on here - e.g. "what level is the writing", "has the teacher cheated this result?" posts) into a national context. And more anxiety as they can't compare their child with another MN-er's child.

[CrispyFern]

The tables in our school are called speeding arrows, trotting horses, meandering tourists, and mossy pebbles.

I don't have to really ponder too hard on how my DC are doing.

[CrispyFern]

I slightly changed the names to protect my anonymity

[spanieleyes]

I understand at least one of the schools that took the money to develop "best practice" has now withdrawn from the pilot and is selling the assessment system they developed!!

[AsBrightAsAJewel]

My tables are named after Greek gods. They are mixed groups but I bet that causes some discussion at the school gate! A governor's son, purely by chance, is on Zeus, as is child of chair of PTA. CoG's DC is on Athena ... And as for the mum whose child is in Ares...!

[Lucyccfc]

We are very lucky with DS's school, as the teachers do give out levels and sub levels each year, with a lot of narrative to back it up. They are completely open. They don't tell us which table or ability group the children sit in, as the children know this anyway.

I know how well my DS is doing based on national standards. Our school have stuck to using the now defunct levels for this year, but will work towards a new system for next year.

Our Head Teacher believes in total transparency with parents. Not sure why some schools would want to hide anything or not give out levels. Our Head had a simple answer to this question though 'she just raised her eyebrows'. What have schools for to hide, if parents don't know how,their children are performing against national standards. We also receive a report on what they need to do to get them to the next sub-level, so we can choose to support at home (if we want to).

[Lucyccfc]

Just to add, that the children also work out of 'years' in ability groups for big write, maths and spellings, so they get the opportunity to work with children of similar abilities, but from different years.

It's not a prep nor a school in an affluent area either, but I feel they do thermoset for all the children and keep parents very well informed.

[AsBrightAsAJewel]

I'd be interested to see what they do now NC levels and sublevels don't exist Lucy. Historically that is what we did, although sub-levels don't have specific criteria. But as we are now in the new era we can't use old assessment criteria (NC levels and sublevels) to assess the new curriculum.

[mrz]

There aren't any new National Curriculum levels or sub levels Bright and there aren't going to be any.

[AsBrightAsAJewel]

Exactly, Mrz!

[jacobibatoli]

Lucy
that sounds great, I would be very happy with that approach

[spanieleyes]

jacobibatoli-but that approach can't exist any longer, there are no levels to give out!

[lougle]

I think you're absolutely spot on that positions in class don't give the bigger picture. However, there is a middle ground.

I got a report saying that DD2 was working in line with national expectations. But, knowing that her maths is less secure than her sister who is 2 school years lower than her, I questioned it. The reality is that she was struggling within the class so had the support of a TA on her table. So perhaps it would be more helpful to say she was 'receiving support through normal differentiation'.

I think I'd be happy if the tick list said:

Above expectations -intervention in place (I.e additional to normal differentiation)
Above expectation but within normal range
Meeting expectation
Below expectation but within normal range
Below expectation -intervention in place (eg. SEN Support)

That is specific enough to tell the parent where their child is.

Also, please, no to the 'positive speak' on reports. ' X has experienced......' is code for 'was in the room but doesn't have a clue about it if you ask her.'

If I got a report that matched the child I know and also matched the interactions with the teacher through the year, I'd be happy. What I can't stand is a teacher telling me my child is struggling with something and then giving a report saying she's fine.

[Lucyccfc]

Whilst levels will no longer exist, I am sure there will have to be something to replace it. I'm confident our school will have a good system in place. The Head has already said that they are going to do their very best to be able to compare the new system, with the old levels, so it's an easy transition for parents.

Who knows what it will look like though!

[mrz]

Comfort blanket assessment

[AsBrightAsAJewel]

Can you explain your comment more fully, mrz, please? Comfort blanket for whom?

[Thatssofunny]

I don't generally have any issue telling parents about how their children are doing, which includes what they are good at and what they need to improve in. It's not difficult...and it doesn't involve telling them who they are of similar ability with.

Just to add, that the children also work out of 'years' in ability groups for big write, maths and spellings, so they get the opportunity to work with children of similar abilities, but from different years.
I visited a school, which worked like that for assessments (so they did a whole-school writing assessments and then put all the children on a 3a in one room, everyone with a 2b in another). I would suspect you'd only see it as an "opportunity" that they work with children from other year groups but same attainment, if your child is not the one, who has to go and work with the Year 1s despite being in UKS2. There were a whole lot of other things about that school, which just felt "wrong", despite it having been judged as "outstanding". (My own school was in the same category at that time, so it wasn't the label that put me off.) I observed one of the most poorly paced and least successfully differentiated English lessons of my life. After having spent a day there, I would never apply to work in that place.
Especially for my weaker ones, mixed ability grouping has been much more beneficial. If children are constantly contained in their own "ability group", how are they ever supposed to realise that there might be more out there and push themselves?

[mrz]

A comfort blanket to schools and teachers who hang onto the old rather than face change. Like all the schools continuing with the Literacy and Numeracy Framework and clinging to levels because they are familiar.

[KnittedJimmyChoos]

So perhaps it would be more helpful to say she was 'receiving support through normal differentiation'.

If I was told that I wouldn't have the foggiest, why not, your child is not great at maths and needs help!

Here is x y and z where she is weak if you want to help her.

[AsBrightAsAJewel]

Oh! I don't know many schools, and certainly none in my area, that are hanging on to the old. What they are doing is not diving into any old assessment until it has been reflected on carefully, all possible options evaluated and the government and LA advice taken on board.

[FinDeSemaine]

Lougle, your tick list would be ideal for me. That is exactly what I want to know, not least because if what seemed appropriate wasn't in place I would want to ask about it.

In our school, things seem to have changed significantly since last year - DD had a wonderfully happy KS1 with loads of differentiation and curriculum enrichment in all directions and all subjects for all children in the class (I helped and help out a lot in class so was able to see it in action and have also seen this year's approach) but it seems very different this year (Y3). I don't know if it's because teachers are having a hard time adjusting to the new curriculum or if KS2 is just different (can't see why it would be) or what but they all seem to be being taught to a very narrow spectrum, despite supposedly being able to choose their level of challenge. It seems like there is a much narrower spread of what they are allowed to attempt and I can't help feeling that this is a backwards step.

When I went to parents evening, DD's teacher said 'oh, she's doing really well, she has a great attitude to learning and she'll be at rough expectations for the end of junior school by the end of the year'. But how will she do this if she is getting no input in terms of learning new stuff at school and not being allowed to attempt things that actually will challenge her? If she can actually do this with no teacher input, then what on earth is the point of school? Yes, I know, massively privileged problem, and I am of course delighted that she is doing well. I actually don't really care what external level DD is at, given that she's doing perfectly fine, as long as she finds it enjoyable/interesting which is not currently the case. But since they have identified this as the level they think she should be reaching, I will be v interested to see how they actually support her to do so. I am guessing, on the evidence so far, that it will be down to me to provide her with an appropriate level of stuff to think about. We don't actually do any formal schoolwork at home currently, bar the fact that she reads books, and I have no plans to change that, though obviously I will answer any questions she asks.

I just find it all a bit odd. The approach seems to have changed a lot and suddenly and not for the better.

[pearpotter]

Pear potter its 25 years since the last change

No, every education minister tinkers. There have been dozens of sea changes in education in the last 25 years!

[lougle]

knittedjimmychoos that would be the descriptive part of the report. My point is that I want to know whether DD's attainment is par for the course, or if I should be concerned.