Ability levels

[wishiwasonthebeach]

Do teachers tell parents which ability level table children are working on?

My son is in year 1 and I know that each table has an animal name, I imagine that they must be working in ability sets but I have no idea what sort if level he is on.

Parents evening was very general, the teacher mostly told me what they have been working on and some targets for literacy. When I tried to find out more about my son in particular she was quite dismissive. I don't know if I should ask her about the tables arrangement or if that's not appropriate.

[mrz]

Sorry posted too early - our parents fill in anonymous questionnaires which include questions about what they want to know from their child's teachers and how well they feel that information is communicated

[MilkRunningOutAgain]

So what are the very good reasons that you don't want to share a level with a parent? My school doesn't tend to give them out and asking makes the teachers get nervous and prone to randomly changing the subject. I have in the past adopted the paxman approach and just continued asking the question but have given this up as I prefer to get useful info on how settled my dd is and whether she's plucked up courage to ask questions yet. But info on levels, progress and expectations is thin on the ground.

[PiqueABoo]

So what are these very good reasons besides assertions?

NC levels and national position do correlate.

[Handwasher]

If the school are going to do ability setting then they have to realise that parents will want to know where their children are. I don't know why they are so cagey about it. Frustrating!

[chickenfish]

Because the sublevels have technically never existed, they do not tell you what a child can actually do, it's possible for children to be inbetween sub-levels or inconsistent in their use of particular skills, the school may be in the middle of moderating their levels to make sure they are consistent across all year groups and therefore unable to commit to solid answers until each child's work has been reviewed. The reasons go on and on. It has always been an imperfect system and it's a little unsettling to see parents clinging to it when they usually don't even know what the sublevels mean.

[KnittedJimmyBoos]

Op it is frustrating and its ludicrous you should have to dig round and ask the right questions to merely gain an understanding of how your child is doing. Ludicrous!

[mrz]

Knowing what ability table your child sits at is pretty meaningless. High ability in one school could correspond to middle or even lower ability in a different class.
With changes level one in one school may be level twenty seven or grade c or any alternative in another

[queenceleste]

I do find teachers can sound a tiny bit patronising when parents ask understandable questions like this about their child's ability setting, existent or non existent.
And don't get me wrong; I am a massive supporter and respecter of teachers but I find this, "don't worry your little parental heads about this" tone a little disingenuous.
On the one hand we are in an education system (not blaming teachers for it though) that is hysterical about targets and achievement and SATS etc. ( my ds is in secondary school where the children constantly tell each other what level they're on with obvious stress to all concerned).
When he was in primary his teachers were equally and studiedly oblique with me about ds's setting and I now feel that was a bad strategy for us. I think I was quite naive as a parent and trusted the school too much. I now think that if you know that you have a low achieving but able child you can make more of a difference at home, without blaming anyone and without labelling the child as a failure or the school as under performing. It is just working out the unique school/home balance which will optimise your child's performance in any respect.
I now have an academically confident dd who has taken to school like a duck to water. BUT this is partly because I found having a child who struggled at school to be so stressful that I made sure dd arrived at nursery with a stronger foundation in literacy, a familiarity with phonics and some fundamental numeracy. I would hate to go through what I went through with ds - hoping he would catch up and not having the confidence to take on what the school didn't and not really understanding the power of my role as a parent in my child's education.
I am sure that parents must madden teachers with their self interested wittering, 'is my Johnny in the top set?'. But teachers need to remember, perhaps, that many parents have had poor educational experiences themselves and fear their children's failure in a system which says 'leave it to us your child is doing fine' and you wake up in year 6 and the child is being tested all over the place and goes to secondary school setted for Maths based on his primary SAT scores. So it matters a lot to us and we know it matters a lot to the world our kids are in.

[FlowersForAlgernon]

Well said queen celeste. Very well said.

[mrz]

In over two decades in schools I have only once been asked by a parent if his child was in the top set. To be honest I thought he was barking as the said child had only been in reception for fifteen minutes when the question was posed not even time for me to be secure in putting a name to a face never mind work out how able or not the child was.

I don't find it maddening in the slightest that parents are interested in their child's education (I'm a parent!) but I do find these threads frustrating. Many schools don't use ability grouping so all theories about triangles being less able then dodecahedrons or slugs less able than millipedes are fine but often woefully wrong. I was talking to someone who named his top group The Twits (Ronald Dahl).

Levels no longer exist and sub levels never did in the NC but once again schools worked differently. In some two sub levels would be expected progress in others it might be three or they may work by points with an expectation of three, four or even six points progress!

There have never been national expectations except for the end of each key stage although some schools set end of year expectations (but not all by any any means) and that is the problem when you try to compare your child with others rather than focus on your child's needs instead of some spurious target set by MN!

[KnittedJimmyBoos]

Umm not really sure its up to the teacher to judge the whys or wherefores of why any parent wants to know which table the child is sat on.


Sounds obstructive and hug handed to judge the parent on asking or not giving clear ansas.

I mean its easy to say " yes Tom is on the top table however this year Maths skills are poor at the moment (or appropriate wording) so Tom skills are not that amazing -but he is doing x y and z"


People have busy lives and teachers seem to assume they know how schools work and what all these things mean, we can educate ourselves but its not helpful to be met by hug handed teachers who feel its beneath them to ansa questions or ansa them but not give the full context.

Teachers, sometimes forget parents are thrashing round in the dark feeling nervous of seeming pushy, over eager and all the rest.


Parents having to adopt a jeremey paxman style approach at parents evening to get an ansa to a question is disgusting.

Also unless teachers are mind readers they do not know the full context of why any parent is asking any question either!

Its not their job to do any of this, a parent ask a question, ansa it and if you feel they are not asking the right questions as you have more information to pass on, pass it on.

[KnittedJimmyBoos]

queenceleste Tue 28-Oct-14 00:00:56

I missed this post, 100% Yes.

It is patronizing, obstructive and rude really.
Doesn't help anyone.

[KnittedJimmyBoos]

mrz

our DD had a brilliant teacher in reception she did a good job but my goodness, all the parents were told very clearly not to bother her, how busy she was she made you feel very awkard if you wanted to ask a question after school, and at every opportunity did all she could to put us off asking.

She would also say....she only had two people asking her things! NOt saying your the same Mrz but its meaningless without context.

[jeee]

mrz - At my children's school, the maths groups were shaped - from circles (low ability) to triangle, squares, pentagons, and up to hexagons (high abililty). For some reason this always made us laugh.

I think that when schools set, it is fairly obvious. Not least because the children know. One of the saddest things I hear (and I've heard it from more than one child) is when a child announces, "Oh, I'm on X table. We're the thick ones."

[AsBrightAsAJewel]

I am another teacher who doesn't have ability tables. I have start the day / general class places that are based on friendships and who will / won't work well when sitting together. I have names for these tables just for ease of basic classroom organisation. However the children get differentiated support and work in each lesson depending on their needs and this can vary every day, this may be moving seats every lesson so children needing the same support are together. So a child on what would be called "top tale" in this thread on Monday may well be on second to bottom on Thursday! That's why I can't answer parents when they ask. I can answer whether their child is on track to meet or exceed the end of year expected level. I can tell the parent what their child needs to do next to be on track. I can say how we are supporting each step and what parents can do to help. But I can't give position in class, ability table or the non-existent level their child is at. And neither can any of the teachers at my group of schools - Maybe OP is one of our parents?

[mrz]

How does it help you to know your child is on the top or bottom table in the class?
We've had a number of children arrive from schools around the UK whose parents have happily informed us they were on the top table in their old school only to be upset when we suggested their child needed additional support

[Thecroissantthief]

I just don't get the point of trying to work out whether your child is on top or middle or bottom table, even if they do exist in the classroom and on this thread we've heard from teachers who don't use such an approach. Surely it's far better to ask the teacher what your child can do, what she/he can do to improve and if he/she is meeting expectations.

I don't think anyone's said this yet on this thread, but after 15 or more years of being a parent standing in playgrounds etc. I know that the reason many (and I'm not saying all) parents want to know the table is to find out if their child is better than the other children in the class, and to then stealthily make sure other parents know that their child is cleverer than theirs. I've heard it time and time again and it can cause such bad feeling. Of course these parents are also obsessed with book bands as well.

[KnittedJimmyBoos]

That's why I can't answer parents when they ask


If you have thoroughly explained, clearly how you work your tables why would they ask?

[KnittedJimmyBoos]

No The croissant as queenceleste so beautifully put it..

many parents have had poor educational experiences themselves and fear their children's failure in a system which says 'leave it to us your child is doing fine' and you wake up in year 6 and the child is being tested all over the place and goes to secondary school setted for Maths based on his primary SAT scores. So it matters a lot to us and we know it matters a lot to the world our kids are in.


I think there is some point missing too.

The whys and wherefores of anyone asking about childs progress is none of the teachers business.


Its the teachers job to report as acuralty and clearly as possible how that child is doing.

[redskybynight]

When DD was in Year 1, I openly heard some of the parents saying that as long as their child was in at least group 3 (of 5) they would be reassured that they were doing ok. They then went to huge lengths to identify their child's group.

Unfortunately for those parents, DD's peer group was a particularly weak one, and those self same parents with DC in group 3 (or even 2) were horrified when finding at the end of Y2 that their DC had not met, or barely scraped, national expectations.

The school also gave out NC levels at each parents' evening and at year end, so there was no reason why this should have come as a surprise - but the parents were lulled into a false sense of security by their DC's grouping within the class, without seeing the bigger picture.

[AsBrightAsAJewel]

I'm not sure Knitted - I explain, it is in the school policy, on the websites, children can explain how they move around tables to help learn. But everyone knows how school should run because they went to school themselves. It is just a few parents each year that query it, so I really can't say why they ask, it may be:-

1. They don't believe me - it wasn't like that in their day so I must be lying to them to avoid answer the question (yes - actually been told that one once!). If they use the broken record technique they will get the answer they want.
   
2. They still feel I should be able to give them where their child ranks compared to other children (maybe for reasons mentioned above by another poster).
   
3. They are so hung up on sub-levels that there must be a simple answer.
   
   Or maybe another reason.

[Knottyknitter]

Not a parent (yet: 9 weeks and counting), but given the kids know anyway, what's the point of the cloak and dagger stuff? I knew I was the first free reader in my infants class, I knew I was on the blue maths book while others were still on the red or green ones, and could probably have had a reasonable go at a class order if I'd tried (by middle juniors, at least)

Nothing was setted, and I also knew that for anything involving catching a ball, paint or glue I was at the bottom. Unless the plan was for it all to be brown and sticky...

At secondary, everything was setted, I was far more average, and getting your position in the class was a great motivator. Is this completely gone now? What is the evidence behind that move?

[prettydaisies]

I also have no ability tables in my class. Children sit in groups taking into consideration who works well with who. My tables are named 1 to 5 going anti clockwise round the room. I do wonder what the parents think........

[mrz]

Knotty knitter if there isn't a blue group or free readers ?

I don't have groups as I said earlier my pupils sit where they want as long as they get on with their work, my tables seat two (ability pairs anyone?) I don't have book bands and we don't try to con parents with the free reader myth ...

[CatKisser]

I don't have ability tables either. Children know their targets and expectations through comments in my marking and by leveled success criteria.

Most parents want to know at parents' evenings a) are they happy? b) are they making progress? c) what can we do to help him/her? All of which I'm more than happy to help with.

However, I'll never comment on a child's ability within the context of others in the class - why on earth would I? The child working at level 2 is always going to be working at the bottom of a year 6 class - but hey, she started the year on a 1b so let's just celebrate that! (Year 6 are still working to NC levels.)

KnottyKnitter If you're a mid-higher level achieving pupil I can see why getting your (publically displayed) position in class might have been motivating, but what about the feeling of dread for the ones who would once again be bottom? It's partly why I don't have ability tables - when I've done it in the past, the children look around at the others they've been placed with (probably the same for their whole school career) and automatically they think they "know their place." It's limiting.