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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

Any early signs that a child will be capable of passing 11+?

138 replies

NumptyNu · 22/10/2014 22:20

Potentially a question for teachers really, but feel free to chip in mums and dads with any useful info and experiences. My question is, does it follow that if your child is doing well in year one or two, that you can extrapolate out a few years and assume they will be 11+ candidate? Or vice versa, would a slow reader at age 5 result in a lower potential for passing the 11+?

Is this a classic case of primary schooling being a marathon rather than a sprint? Or is there a clear correlation between bright kids at age 6 going on to 11+ success?

OP posts:

Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

Set a reminder

MarriedDadOneSonOneDaughter · 25/10/2014 13:15

What is "posh" anyway?

PS Who cares?

RabbitOfNegativeEuphoria · 25/10/2014 13:52

Yes, they do - but they often get 're-zoned' as it were, especially since the recent changes in policy. SN is now - broadly speaking - defined on an absolute scale of achievement rather than a diagnosed condition. If you are dyspraxic but doing average or better at school as far as the DfE is concerned you aren't dyspraxic. Same goes for dyslexia.

KnittedJimmyBoos · 25/10/2014 22:17

Hakluyt Sat 25-Oct-14 09:37:31

Are you describing yourself in that description too?

You have to be clever to pass, but parental support is at least, if not more, important. Not fair, but true.

Not fair that the school does not support children to aim for the 11+ if they have that natural aptitude.

KnittedJimmyBoos · 25/10/2014 22:25

Re the poster upthread about children in reception who are bright vs well prepared: what is a "well prepared" 4 year old???

I think they mean the ones who are drilled from very early on to count and write, they can all do it already in reception whereas others are just learning.

I couldn't have drilled mine if I tried, I certainly exposed her to to holding pens, writing name, counting but she just wasn't ready. She was literally learning it all in reception and she had a brilliant teacher, she started to fly in year 1 and is doing really well in year 2. I used to worry a little about her when peers were prepared, but not know.

KnittedJimmyBoos · 25/10/2014 22:26

I have two friends two dc are very prepared by hugely involved and dedicated mum, the others child is naturally very bright and you can see it a mile off and the difference between the two.

JustRichmal · 25/10/2014 22:39

Not fair that the school does not support children to aim for the 11+ if they have that natural aptitude.
How is a teacher to pick up that a child has natural aptitude? For instance, if they are teaching number bonds, a child either can or cannot do this. Children are a mixture of innate ability and upbringing from home. All they can do is teach to the ability of the child, not determine how they got that ability.

sickntiredtoo · 26/10/2014 17:41

I think at a very young age (4 or 5) , it is possible to pick out the children who pick up new ideas very quickly.

Taffeta · 26/10/2014 17:44

Not fair that the school does not support children to aim for the 11+ if they have that natural aptitude.

Certainly in Kent, state schools are forbidden from teaching the 11+. I think I would be more than a little pissed off if I had a DC who wasn't going to take the 11+ who was being taught stuff to do with it in school hours.

KittyandTeal · 26/10/2014 17:49

The 2 in my year 2 class years ago (4 years ago) I predicted would pass the 11+ just have.

I'd say parents who are involved and do a range of activities with their children out of school, read and talk to their kids lots, help them with homework/school work, take on board what the teachers say are their child's targets.

I have to say though, I think most 11+ passers are naturally bright.

If you have to tutor your child to within an inch of their life for them to pass they're going to really struggle at grammar school.

Seriouslyffs · 26/10/2014 17:54

The Sutton trust report reflects my experience with 3x DC. Advanced at nursery with some blips at primary (2 slow to read, one child with ?dx dyspraxia) a little coaching for maths for 2 of them (

MarriedDadOneSonOneDaughter · 26/10/2014 18:20

kittyandteal

Can I +1 your post and declare no need for any more discussion as you smashed it.

MrsCakesPrecognition · 26/10/2014 18:28

DD's class teacher approached us at the end of her first term in Y4 and suggested that DD has the potential to do well, but that the school would not be able to support her and recommended we consider tutoring to cover the missing parts of the curriculum.
TBH, it wasn't a huge surprise as we knew she was bright from the outset. But it was nice to know it wasn't purely our PFBitis. Not that we did much about it until she got into Y5.

39steppesmum · 26/10/2014 20:47

This is an interesting question.

ds was academically slow in KS1. But he was verbally very articulate and quick to grasp new concepts and had a broad good general knowledge.
But he didn't take off with reading til ks3, and he took off in leaps and bounds in year 5 and 6.

He is now at a super selective.

dd1 and dd2 were in top group from reception, quick to pick up reading etc but also the same as ds verbally and general knowledge. dd1 will take 11+ next september. I expect (hope) she will pass
(we don't tutor, but do familiarisation with test type questions and speed)

dd2 is 6 and in year 2 and in top group. As I look at that group I can guess who would pass 11+ and who wouldn't. We laugh at the brown bread and humous stereotype, but I think that the parents are key.
It is about vocabulary, conversations round the dinner table, reading a wide variety of books and all that kitty and teal said.

Sadly this means that the group of bright kids from a non educated background, who should get the opportunity of a grammar school won't make it in. It has been said that the 11+ is lost or passed on vocab.

KnittedJimmyBoos · 26/10/2014 20:57

I think I would be more than a little pissed off if I had a DC who wasn't going to take the 11+ who was being taught stuff to do with it in school hours.

Of course thats why, when the school sees their potential they discuss their future choices with you, are you aiming for 11+ yes or no and if yes they will support.

Original poster

NumptyNu · 26/10/2014 21:01

Cripes. I've got some reading to do!

OP posts:

39steppesmum · 26/10/2014 21:03

I also think that the 11+ does nothing to help English second language kids. The test is so language dependent and there is no space to test someone whose English is a little below age level as it is their second language, but is bright, and would catch up with English.

Taffeta · 26/10/2014 21:17

Of course thats why, when the school sees their potential they discuss their future choices with you, are you aiming for 11+ yes or no and if yes they will support.

Not in Kent, as mentioned they are not allowed to teach 11+ in state primaries. This isn't the case in independents.

MrsCakesPrecognition · 26/10/2014 21:25

Not at our Essex state primary either.

newpencilcase · 27/10/2014 08:25

I am interested in responses.

My son is on year 4. Always in the top or 2nd group, level 3s at end of year 2.

He is quick thinking and has a good vocabulary, picks ideas up quickly etc.

However he has struggled at school as he fidgets, struggles to concentrate in class and is slow to complete his work (easily distracted).

I think either this will improve over the next year or two or he will be one of those children who are bright but aren't ready to compete at 11.

I'm not really inclined to strap him to a chair while he does his bond books.

LePetitMarseillais · 27/10/2014 08:33

"Strap him in a chair whilst he does his Bond books" I don't know anybody who did that.

And frankly if you focus on Bond you're wasting your time imvho. We found them easier than the real thing and without enough structure.

At the end of the day children will have to do a bit of extra prep and exam technique if their schools don't cover the curriculum.They need to take responsibility for it and if they want to go to the school in question no strapping in at all will be involved.

newpencilcase · 27/10/2014 08:43

Yes, Le Petit. That's kind of my point.

I think even if you can predict the ability, you can't predict the inclination.

newpencilcase · 27/10/2014 08:43

And actually I know plenty of people who did that. They didn't pass though

RabbitOfNegativeEuphoria · 27/10/2014 08:45

There have been posts on MN in the past from people who basically seemed to be doing that. Don't know if it worked though.

HamNJam · 27/10/2014 09:54

"I also think that the 11+ does nothing to help English second language kids. The test is so language dependent and there is no space to test someone whose English is a little below age level as it is their second language, but is bright, and would catch up with English."

Surprisingly not entirely true. Maybe it varies across the country (we're in the south east). Some varieties of the 11+ don't contain an English comprehension section, although many grammars have moved to a more broad test to include English comprehension.

My kids' year group consists mainly of kids who have English as a 2nd language. And if you take a look at 11+ forums elsewhere, there are discussions about how several schools are predominantly "filled" with English as a 2nd language kids.

DontCallMeBaby · 27/10/2014 10:53

I asked an acquaintance when she realised her DS1 might be grammar school material (specifically the spectacularly high-achieving coed grammar) and got a bit of an MN answer - 'when he was hopping along the alphabet line in the playground, coming up with a country for each letter'. In Year 1. I gave up on DD at that point.

However, DD absolutely stormed CATS at the start of Year 5, so we took it a bit more seriously, and yes, got her a tutor. She's not good at listening to DH and me, and really did need the help with exam technique and timing, and a boost with her maths.

She actually didn't pass for the above-mentioned school, but did for the two single-sex grammars we shared results with. Her Year 5 teacher will have seen this coming, post-CATS, but I don't know about the others. And we didn't really - we knew she was was bright, but she's never been a child to come up with some amazing statement that makes you think 'where did that come from?', or to develop an interest and go and learn all about it, or to make great logical leaps ... She's part of a bright cohort, so doesn't stand out particularly. Plus, interesting to read someone above saying that kids who are good at non-verbal reasoning don't really get a chance to show that in school - she is spectacularly good at NVR. Much weaker in maths, so her ability doesn't tend to be apparent.

In short, I wouldn't say it came completely out of the blue, but in my eyes DD wasn't an obvious 11+ candidate. I did have a friend laugh at me and say 'what, you didn't know?' when I was reeling from the CATS results, so maybe I should've just asked her in the first place!

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