Armed Forces' proselytism in primary schools and the question of war

[kchornik]

In the wake of the atrocities committed in Gaza, it is more urgent than ever that our children learn that war is a very serious matter and should be avoided by all means.

This week I was shocked to hear a Flight Lieutenant using the words ‘cool’, ‘fun’ and ‘exciting’ to describe his job at an ‘Inspirational Talk’ for Year 6-children and their parents, organised by a primary school, which my daughter attended. The LT is currently a member of the Royal Air Force and has served in Iraq and Afghanistan, among other countries.

After showing a film depicting his spectacular pirouetting skills – sound-tracked with Hollywood-style, heroic music –, he recounted his career in the RAF, stressing how great his job was. He made no mention of his training or participation in armed conflicts – how odd, given that these are central remits of the armed forces! – and did not show any awareness or concerns about the humanitarian disasters caused by wars. Instead, he presented his job as a sporting adventure.

Worryingly, most children appeared positively impressed by his account. The youngsters’ questions all tallied with the partial and superficial information given to them. ‘What do you feel when you spin?’, asked one boy. In his answers, he even suggested that some could join the RAF. I wonder in what ways teachers believe these promotions might be ‘inspirational’.

Attending this talk made me realise the extent to which it is possible to manipulate and decontextualize issues of enormous implications, and that we have not sufficiently educated our children about the horrors of wars.

[identifying features removed by MNHQ]

[AuntieStella]

What "we" did in Iraq was the decision of the politicians. The military are competent, and do what is required of them by the Government.

And although the Red Arrows are recruited from fast jet pilots with several years experience (all of whom will have operational experience thanks to Blair), if they are talking about aerobatics, they are no different from the majority if Red Bull pilots.

[EvansOvalPiesYumYum]

WWI was an unnecessary war. WWII yes was necessary, but wasn't won by us but by the Russians

WTF??? I'd love to know what history comics books you've been reading

[Shallishanti]

But WWII was very different to the wars our forces are fighting now- you can make a good case for saying it was just war. Iraq, Afghanistan, I don't think so. The POINT of the RAF isn't to put on exciting air displays is it, and as people have said the chances of becoming a red arrow pilot through joining the RAF must be extremely small.
Of course he wasn't recruiting, but he was IMO selling the idea that flying a fast jet is cool and exciting and I think there is only one place to do that.
Being able to learn a trade, travel etc are all good things- and it's a shame if for some people their only way of acheiving this is to join the forces. But faced with a child or young person who was thinking that would be a good route, I'd ask them to think what, really is the POINT of the armed forces? And how will they feel putting their lives on the line and/or bombing civilians because some politicians think it's a good idea? What if they don't agree?

[cruikshank]

I hope you're not going to tell me that he fed people into a human mincemeat maker, Evans.

Yes, I am aware of what Hussein did, but we didn't go in there to stop that. We went in because Bush is a fucking cunt and wanted to 'get back' at someone - anyone would have done - for the terrorist attack on New York. Which had nothing to do with Iraq. And incidentally we were pretty fucking pally with Hussein back in the day, as was the US.

[FlossyMoo]

The purpose they are serving is to have a fun talk with kids because they do an exciting job. Flying as one of the RA must be damn exciting.

By the time any child is old enough to join up they will have enough knowledge of what happens when at war to make that informed decision.

I work at a garrison and with ex soldiers and I can honestly tell you that their reasons for joining were not because it was cool or fun. For some it is a family thing. For others it was career choice just like choosing to be a teacher. For a few it was because it was the army or jail.

You clearly have a hatred of the armed forces and that's fine but please refrain from banding around ridiculous and ill informed garbage.

[LynetteScavo]

But charleybarley, if you went to a Quaker school, it would have been independent, not state. You were privileged to attend a school where certain topics were/were not promoted. Other independent schools view the armed forces very, very differently!

If the armed forces turned up to promote themselves at a school I was paying for, they wouldn't be receiving fees from me for much longer, but hey!

To me, it's a bit like complaining DC are being take to a CofE church service when they attend a state CofE school. I might no like it, but if you live in the UK, and send your DC to a state school.....

[MumTryingHerBest]

cruikshank perhaps we should disband the army and enjoy the lovely peaceful country we will have then (after every other country has knocked the sh*t out of it that is).

[cruikshank]

Evans, you do know that WWII was won by the Russians, don't you?

(NB they were fighting alongside us at that point.)

[EvansOvalPiesYumYum]

The fact remains, we have to have defensive armed forces. Otherwise we'd be invaded by all and sundry. It is necessary.

Imagine having no armed forces at all, and another country decides to invade us. What would you suggest we do then? Just sit back and allow them to take us over?

I really do wonder sometimes, at people's naivety. Astounding.

[cruikshank]

And in what way was going into Iraq and killing 650,000+ civilians a 'defensive' act, Evans? What were they doing to us?

FlossyMoo, I'm not aware of having said anything that is 'garbage' but if you disagree with a specific point I've made I'll happily debate the matter with you.

[EvansOvalPiesYumYum]

Yes, Cruikshank - they were fighting alongside us at the time. But WWII was won because nations were fighting alongside and with each other. Russia did not win it alone. It was as the result of the culmination and combination of many of us together. Not Russia, single-handedly. (The Russian winter helped a lot, I grant you).

[hoobypickypicky]

"A talk in my DCs state primary school promoting the armed forces as cool, fun and exciting would mildly annoy me"

A talk in my DC's school promoting the armed forces would incite me to take my children out of it for the duration of the event if I had advanced warning or hit the roof and withdraw my children completely if I only found about it after it had taken place.

There are some excellent arguments here made from the alternative POV but I believe that this topic is something for the parent/s to raise with their DC and not the state.

kchornik, I understand and agree with your reservations.

[MumTryingHerBest]

cruikshank and then joining the army. And then killing people. If that isn't the desired result, why go? I do believe that not everyone who joins the army gets to kill people or are you under the impression that everyone in the army is a front line soldier?

Perhaps having someone talk to the children about being a red arrow it will result in some of them becoming a pilot for an airline company. I don't believe there are only pilots in the army.

[EvansOvalPiesYumYum]

That was not the decision of the armed forces, Cruikshank - they were acting on the instruction of our Government at the time (rightly or wrongly). Obeying orders, not their call.

[MumTryingHerBest]

cruikshank and in what way was going into Iraq and killing 650,000+ civilians a 'defensive' act, Evans? What were they doing to us?

Out of interest were you actually in Iraq or have you gathered all your information from the heavily sensored/edited media coverage we get in this country?

[hoobypickypicky]

"Obeying orders" is not a good enough excuse for killing people, imvho, Evans. I don't want my DC to become that obliging.

Nor do some other people. So why not leave this out of the classroom and allow parents to make the choice as to whether they want the armed forces promoted in the way the OP describes?

You and LtEve and others of your way of thinking can raise your children with your beliefs and I can raise my own with mine. Would that not solve the debate?

[cruikshank]

Evans, there is an argument (quite a good argument to my mind) that the Russians could have defeated the Germans even if they were working on their own. Of course, they suffered horrified casualties - far more than anything the US or UK saw - but they also meted out death on a much larger scale than we did. It was only thanks to the depletion of the German forces in the battle for Russia that we were able to win on the Western Front - something like 90% of the Germans' total casualties in WWII happened on the Russian Front.

[MumTryingHerBest]

hoobypickypicky
"A talk in my DCs state primary school promoting the armed forces as cool, fun and exciting would mildly annoy me"

Crucial points you seem to have missed are that the OP did not actually attend the presentation and from what I can tell the person giving the presentation was a Red Arrow. Are you saying that you would object to a Red Arrow telling children about how exciting it is and would you therefore object to taking your children to a Red Arrow display?

[JanineStHubbins]

"Obeying orders" hasn't washed as an excuse since Nuremberg.

[BaileyWhite]

Fact is that any TV recruitment ad doesn't show the reality of conflict and war. Most of them look like trailers for games which is probably why Prince Harry typically confuses war with gaming .

[cruikshank]

Mumtryingherbest - no I wasn't in Iraq. I doubt that that would make much difference though as to knowing how many people were killed, given that even on-the-ground observers, as I said near the beginning of this debate, do not know the full scale of the loss of civilian life in Iraq that is down to our heroes.

[EvansOvalPiesYumYum]

When my children were at school and college, they had recruitment people in from the armed forces. They were all full fuss when they came home, having listened to the talks. However, they were adult enough to make up their own minds as to what they wanted to do with their lives. If they had wanted to join up, then although a little worried, I'd have supported it. They chose not to - fine by me also.

These are only options offered. I think we need to remember that, and also, do not belittle people who are protecting us. There are plenty of countries on this planet in which we would not even be permitted to have a conversation such as this. Be thankful we live where we do, and be thankful we have our military forces to protect us and allow us to live as we do.

[MumTryingHerBest]

cruikshank so you have spoken directly to those "on-the-ground observers"?

[TheFairyCaravan]

What grips my shit on these threads is, everyone who is anti-Forces thinks of the "bad" that they do, never the good.

Remember the floods? It didn't take long for all the calls of "bring in the Army" did it? And they came didn't they? They helped in those stricken communities in this country.

Remember the riots? Bring the Army in, everyone said. How would people propose we did that if young men and women didn't join up?

I remember watching the TV one day not long after we had been posted, the floods in Pakistan were on the news. My old next door neighbour, who was an aircraft technician, came running out of the back of a Chinook with food on his shoulder. But they don't do any good anywhere, do they?

DS1 said when he went to selection there were lads there who were joining the Army because it was the only way out of the sink estates and rundown areas they lived in. They had had terrible educations, they had no prospects and the Army gave them a way out of that. I can't blame them for grasping it with both hands.

[blueemerald]

MumTryingHerBest Of course you don't know this about me or my school but a very large number of our parents are unable to discuss the pro and cons of washing regularly or regular meals let alone the emotional complexities of joining the army.