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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

Any yr 1 teachers out there?

27 replies

permaquandry · 10/07/2014 07:44

Please can you tell me if you've had any newly fluent readers (red bananas) with average or above average attainment in everything else, fail the recent phonics test (31)?

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mrz · 10/07/2014 08:20

In the three years the check has run I've never had a good reader score less than 40/40

Original poster

permaquandry · 10/07/2014 09:38

Thanks for the reply. I spoke with DC's teacher and she said that she was really surprised and had 2 or 3 other DCs fail, who expected a 40/40.

I asked if I need to do any extra work with DC and she said not to worry at all DC is a great reader etc. DC will be retested at end of year 2 and she has no worries.

What could be the problem, do you think?

Anything I could do? I want to support DC as best I can.

Thx.

OP posts:

proudmama2772 · 10/07/2014 09:46

I'm not a teacher, but a mum.

My daughter failed it and was an above average reader. In her school there was around a 70% pass rate. In year 2 her reading progress hit a plateau. She just scored a 2c on the reading SAT. We started doing phonics cards with her - in a very specific way and that has helped recently.

That being said I've got 2 other DC who were much better readers at her age without the new phonics emphasis

zingally · 10/07/2014 20:11

I wouldn't be worried. Some of the middly->good readers fail because they try to turn the made-up words into real words (quite sensible in my opinion!)

We encourage them, all the rest of the year, to try and make sense of words they aren't sure of... Then this lets them down come screening time.

As long as she is actually reading well, you don't need to worry. She'll be re-tested in year 2, and should pass, no problems.

Popsicle7 · 10/07/2014 22:09

Red bananas?

I wouldn't expect them to fail, but maybe get one or two wrong as looking for a real word. Eg. 'Nigh' as 'night' as your average 5 year old has not heard of 'nigh' !

mrz · 11/07/2014 06:52

It doesn't let down good readers it identifies the children who may be at risk because they don't read what is actually on the page ... the ones who read nigh as night or sliver as silver because they haven't been taught to read what is actually on the page! The excuse that good readers try to make nonsense words into real words is laughable. Six year olds will encounter many many words that aren't in their vocabulary is it acceptable they should try to make all of these into familiar words? It's the reason why children come to a sudden halt around year 3 when they are meeting unfamiliar words in texts.

101066 · 11/07/2014 21:26

mrz so if a child - gets 38/40 - pronounces nigh as night and yewn as yawn, but is then assessed as 1A reading, and in the cohort is considered an able reader - Should I be concerned - as you said your able readers are scoring 40/40

MrsKCastle · 11/07/2014 21:50

10166 I haven't had DD's mark yet, but I wouldn't be at all suprised if she did what you describe. I know exactly what she's like with her reading- she has very good phonic knowledge and can sound out most unfamiliar words. She can read most age-appropriate chapter books fairly fluently. But she can also rush and fail to sound out new words in her haste to find out what happens next.

I wouldn't say I'm exactly 'concerned' about her, but I do know that I need to work on it with her- it's a bad habit that she needs to get out of in order to continue to progress well. I'm addressing it by just continually pulling her up on it when she reads, getting her to re-read and sound out carefully where necessary and pointing out the phonemes.

(Just in case someone comes along to claim this, I am NOT taking the joy out of reading or similar! This might happen once a page and take 10 seconds to go back to a word).

101066 · 11/07/2014 22:01

Thanks MrsKCastle - I will keep this in mind

mrz · 12/07/2014 07:15

If a child read yewn as yawn I wouldn't be concerned but I would certainly make sure that I watched out for similar errors in 1-1 reading and stressed the imprortance of looking at all the sounds in the word left to right in order when teaching. I would also check that the child knows that the spelling represents the sound/oo/ not /or/.

My able Y1 readers are probably a level or more above your daughter.

steppemum · 12/07/2014 07:23

mrz - I am really surprised at your post

dd2 is a very good reader, level 2c on her report, reads chapter books, and she got 38.

The school has been drumming phonics all year, and she has been flying through everything, tbh she could have done this test at the end of reception I think. In their practice one that she did before easter she got 40 (I help out in class and happened to be in that day) But in the last 3 weeks before the test she was so bored with all the phonics that she started to make mistakes. They had practice sheets sent home and she started to get some wrong, and I kept having to say to her 'concentrate'

She wasn't the only one, several in that top group got 38/39. Overall in the class only 2 didn't pass, but I think the good readers had had enough of it all.

mrz · 12/07/2014 07:39

All I can report is that in the 3 years I've administered the check the good readers score 40/40 speppemum. I teach phonics lessons in class I don't "drum it", we didn't practise and nothing was sent home.

manchestermummy · 12/07/2014 07:44

DD got 37 and a 2b for reading and given that she got over 32 I wasn't concerned. However, should she have done better?

steppemum · 12/07/2014 07:51

I think the teacher was very concerned to get some of the weaker readers through, and the drumming it in was pretty boring. I wasn't brilliantly happy with it.

When she reads, she occasionally jumps too fast and guesses a familiar word, but because of context she usually then stops and rereads, decoding properly to find the new word.

mrz · 12/07/2014 08:02

It defeats to object of the check to "drum" ... a basic point some teachers seem to have missed. It's a screening check to identify which children will need extra input and drilling could disguise real difficulties.

no manchestermummy she shouldn't have got better and hopefully the teacher will use it as a screening tool, look at the 3 words she got wrong to see if there are any common features and plan to fill any possible gaps ...it's what teachers should be doing all the time.

wigglywoowoo · 12/07/2014 08:02

My daughter scraped a pass last year and finished year one as a 2B. I have always been concerned regarding dyslexia but I also knew from listening to her read that she rushes things and doesn't look at the words fully as a result. Her teacher said not to worry but I have spent the last year drumming into her that the she needs to slow down and read what is on the page and not what she expects to see. She has definitely has improved and has progressed according to the school to 3B in Year 2 I would encourage you to try and work out what isn't quite right for your child as an able reader should not fail, if they know their sounds.

lljkk · 12/07/2014 08:10

"Some of the middly->good readers fail because they try to turn the made-up words into real words (quite sensible in my opinion!)"

I've been flamed on MN for saying that happens. (sigh). And that being an excellent reader can be a disadvantage on the phonics test. Or that the emphasis on phonics may mean time take away from learning to read for some. DS is definitely a whole word reader by preference.

DS can't really read so he passed phonics test ok. He responds very differently to single words on a page than to a string of words in a sentence which is what you actually encounter when reading.

imsorryiasked · 12/07/2014 08:22

Our ds reception teacher told all the parents that some children would fail the yr1 phonics test because they would have progressed past this stage in their reading.
So no i wouldnt worry.

misssmapp · 12/07/2014 08:23

Ds1 left yr 1 as a free reader, however he has fab memory and learnt to read whole words. His phonic knowledge is shocking and , as a result, his spelling is dire.

He is now in Yr 4 and , although above average in reading, is below in writing. He didn't do the phonics test, but certainly would and should have failed.

imsorryiasked · 12/07/2014 08:23

Our ds reception teacher told all the parents that some children would fail the yr1 phonics test because they would have progressed past this stage in their reading.
So no i wouldnt worry.

MirandaWest · 12/07/2014 08:27

I personally think that sounds a bit odd - there's no stage

MirandaWest · 12/07/2014 08:29

Of reading where you don't need to use your phonic knowledge. Something doesn't happen to you when you can read fluently to stop you using phonics. Sounds more like the school is uncertain of its phonics teaching.

SixImpossible · 12/07/2014 08:34

When dc1 did the test, able readers and good decoders in his year group were scoring low because they were trying instinctively to correct non-words.

By the time dc3 did the test, the teachers had changed the way they prepared the children. They split the words into 'aliens' and 'real words'. They even illustrated the flash cards with pictures of aliens. Results for poor decoders a did not change much, but able readers and good decoders started getting far more appropriate scores.

SixImpossible · 12/07/2014 08:37

What gubbins I am talking!

The able readers had problems with non-words, it was the good decoders who were able to ignore the nonsense and weren't affected by it. Of course, a child can be a good decoder but not yet have progressed to being a good reader.

mrz · 12/07/2014 10:21

It simply isn't true lljkk that good readers try to make nonsense words into real words.
Have you read the posts on this thread where "good readers" read nigh (real but unfamiliar word) as night (familiar word) it shows they aren't reading accurately which will be a problem when they meet texts with a wider vocabulary and lots of words that aren't familiar.

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