other parents questioning my child without us being there.

[andyndionne]

Hi,
I just wanted to know what the forum felt about the following situation and whether there is anything legal that can be done to stop this..

Over the last few years, my son (now 9)and his friend (also 9) have been bullied at school, by a boy who has an over protective mother, my son always seemed to get caught when he retaliated and being brought up to tell the truth always admitted to hitting, poking, kicking this other child, but not knowing how to tell someone that he was retaliating. As his parents we decided to let him sort it out, but be there to support him if it got too much. About a year ago I caught this boys mum berating my son after an incident between the two boys. The teacher at the time apologized and said she bought the issue out of the class only to find the mother there and could not change the situation.. Since then there has been some animosity between us as parents, where we have told our boy to stay away from their child.. Our boy and other boys have continued to be bullied and the bully goes home and gets questioned about the day an only states what others have done to him. That is the background. Now for the bad bit. My son, his friend and a couple of other boys were caught talking about killing this child using bleach in his crisps or poison berries or a sniper rifle. I cannot condone this behavior from my child under any circumstances and my wife was rightly called into the office to chat with the headmistress. A plan of action was put in place where the boys were going to apologize to the boy in question and a workshop involving all 5 of the boys was to take place to bring the 4 silly boys and the bully together to resolve the issue. This was duly done. THE ISSUE is that the headmistress then took my child and the other child involved in the incident into an office with the bullies(victims) parents where they were questioned and made to apologize to those parents WITHOUT myself or my wife being present. When I heard this I immediately went cold with anger and talked to the headmistress the next day. She told me that it was discussed in the meeting the previous day that this would happen. None of the other parents whose children were involved and were in the meeting remembered this as we would have all refused. I can believe that this over protective Mother had instigated this and as she is a trouble maker, got her way.
Is there anything I can do after the fact to ensure that my child is not questioned by other parents without us being there... I emphasized the point to the head teacher, but need something a little firmer to ensure it doesn't happen again.

Just as a sideline...
To cap this all off, and I am no way condoning my sons behavior, the Mother called the police on Friday afternoon and said the while thing was a racial issue because they were not Caucasian or christian and this was what motivated the 'attack'. The police were understanding when they cam over and I gave a frank and honest review of our contacts with the over protective mother and they said they would go back to them and have a talk. Please understand this is not just the view of the family by myself as a parent, but also a reflection of some of the other parents views as well (I am not a gossip, just a very angry Dad trying to do the best for my son).. Roll on Monday when we go back to school.

I'm a bit bemused at you leaving him to sort it out himself. Any time my DDs have been bullied I have gone straight in to get it sorted.

The boy who is behind all this has been moved from school to school already because of bullying.

That's just gossip - you can't possibly know that.

The other parents questioning your son without your consent or presence is irksome because it implies that they have the upper hand in the situation and are more in control of events than you are. The police showing up at your house must make you feel vulnerable. It would me.

On top of it, from what you are hearing, your son has grievances of his own; and there is a lot of "tit for tat" going on.

Is the school big enough to have more than one class per year group? It would certainly make sense to separate the boys as much as possible. With parents not seeing eye to eye and working together, separation is probably the best answer. Sometimes in life, especially when personalities are involved there can't be any resolution that satisfies everyone. Best to move on if possible.

Pm'd you

Hello OP,

I could not quite understand you post, but am I right in thinking your child is the bully? If so, at the age of 9, it reflects badly on you as the parent.

For children who are bullies moving schools does not solve the problem, the problem moves with them, trying to instil in your child acceptable behaviour over the summer work on how to treat others may work.

Not too late at 9.

OP, it's a sad story. To me there's a clash between your relatively old fashioned approach to the situation (just leaving them to sort it out themselves, and boys will be boys etc), and the modern world of hyper-sensitivity to bullying. Your son and his friends aren't the first kids to fantasize about doing away with a problem through extreme means, and won't be the last. It's just a shame it got to that point without parents and school putting their heads together to help the children through it.

Like others, I don't like the way you refer to the other child as "the bully", and the other mother (who is probably very worried about her child being unhappy at school) as "over-protective". I also think it's naive to tell a child to stay away from another child when they go to school together. They need to learn to rub along with each other. The other child obviously struggles to join in with group play and needs help to make friends, not isolation encouraged by other children's parents.

My DS has trouble with another boy at school. They both want to be leader of the pack, and are both very physical and competitive. I talk to the other mother regularly about it - we get them together for playdates one-to-one. We talk to them about what the other child is feeling, to explain their behaviour, and it helps a lot. My DC thinks of him as a rival rather than an enemy - and, on a good day, his friend.

It may be too late for friendship to blossom in your DC's case, but if you can't move him to another school or another class then it might be worth considering how you might positively encourage it. First step would be to talk it through with the other parents.

On your original question, If you hadn't gone into the full detail of the back story I suspect most Mumsnetters would have been behind you over the issue of your DC being questioned without your permission/presence. I think you're right to complain discretely about that, using the school's complaints procedure, but not to go overboard in the circumstances.

andy

In THIS incident your child and the other boys were bullies. Even if they were not serious about carrying out a murder it obvious caused distress to their victim.

Children don't neatly fall into groups of bullies and victims. Often children are both victims and bullies at different points in their school career.

What your son did was truely vile. However the mum was over reacting. Were any of the boys ten years old? It may well be that the headteacher made the boys appologise to the parents as way of appeasing them and drop charges. A criminal record for racism at the age of ten could come up on a CRB check. I suggest you talk to the head, he may have his reasons for making the boys appologise to the parents.

As another issue it might be worth asking your head teacher to write a general letter to parents asking them not to approach other people's children about playground matters. Two years ago another parent took it upon herself to tell off my three year old daughter for "pushing her child over while playing it". I had seen the incident and the boy had tripped over without being pushed. The mothers reaction was disportionate to the suppose offense and my daugher was utterly terrified having a stranger scream at her.

The schools reaction was to write a formal letter warning that if similar behaviour occured that she would be banned from school grounds. Even if a chld has misbehaved they have the right not be in intimated.

Try to describe the situation without using the word 'bully' at all. It's very emotive and confuses the situation away from the facts.

Then, going from what you have described, read again about all the things your son has done to this other boy.
Read also the fact that you have said there are him and 3 others all doing these things to this boy.

It's difficult when you are involved emotionally, but try. Then have another think about who you accuse of being a bully.

I think the children being spoken to with another parent there but not yourselves is really not the issue you should be focusing on.

There was a bully in my village and several of us got together and our plan was to pee and poo in a bucket and (somehow*) get him to drink it. That didn't suddenly turn us into the bullies. We were trying in our childish ways to fight back against his bullying.

*I can see now that it was quite a flawed plan.

And I do think that the fact they got your children in the room with his parents then claimed they had agreed this with you and the other parents previously when none of you remember it is the issue.

I don't know what you can do about it.

From the teachers point of view there are claims from all directions but it is your child and the others that are being caught. I don't think you can dismiss the possibility that there might be a reason for this.

How do you know that the other child has been moved from school to school because of bullying? And how do you know it is because he is bullying and not being bullied.

It quite often is the retaliator who gets caught though - purely because they are responding in the moment and not planning it - the planning involves slyness and avoidance of being caught, the response is intuitive and reactionary and with no thought of avoidance of being caught. :(

I'm not talking about the "plot" here, I'm talking about the poking etc.

I'm glad waffly has made the point about several of them trying to do something to fight back against the bully in their town - when a number of "weaker" children, who are targeted by a bully, can't do anything about it themselves it would make sense that they would band together in their misery to think of a way to deal with it. Their "suggestion" was an extreme product of their misery, not something they would ever have carried out and I still fail to see how this constitutes them "bullying" the boy who bullied them. From what the OP has said, one of the group told the teacher what they had been talking about, they didn't tell the boy himself, so he wouldn't have felt threatened or intimidated or indeed even have known about it at all if the group member hadn't said anything.

I think some of the responses on here aren't really taking any of this into consideration.

I agree, thumbwitch.

Thumbwitch: "when a number of "weaker" children, who are targeted by a bully, can't do anything about it themselves it would make sense that they would band together in their misery to think of a way to deal with it"

Yes, but in very extreme circumstances it is that victim mentality that leads to cases like Columbine and similar incidents. That is why it is important for adults to intervene to help children manage their relationships and emotions at an early age, before attitudes become entrenched.

The school perhaps needs to look at its pastoral care policies. Do they have a "friendship bench" for children who are being routinely excluded? Do they have a buddy system for children who join the school at a late stage? Do they monitor the evolution of friendships and help children to work through their difficulties? Or do they just tell them to keep away from each other?

In the old days (presumably when waffly was at school) schools didn't manage any of that, and bullying was rife. It's meant to be one of the things that has changed - but not everywhere. It takes intelligence and sensitivity on the part of the teachers - and a good SENCO.

It felt like my son had 3 adults ganging up on him.

So? He was part of a gang of 4 plotting the murder of another child.

It is possible to both bully and be bullied. Your lovely helpful child sounds like my brother who could be a complete angel when he chose but both bullied me and brought his friends home so they could hit me, but my parents never saw this.

Whatever has gone on in the past your son is very lucky he is not 10, he would probably have a police caution if he was.

As for not knowing how to tell an adult he was retaliating, I have heard so many children say, "he did it first" I have trouble understanding a 9 year old who can't.

I agree Menace - the school really needs to address the bullying policies and situation within its walls.

OP write the HT a letter stating clearly that you are unhappy this was done without your involvement and any future dealings with disciplining your child involving other parents you wish to be fully informed in writing prior to it taking place. Ensure you ask for them to respond to this so you have their acknowledgement in writing.

Then leave the issue as you can not undo it.

Speak to your son and start keeping a diary about what is happening if there is bullying going on then report to the school.

also look into other ways your son can learn to deal with frustrations :) plotting murder tends to get you into trouble.. Try to view it as a way to teach him how to solve conflicts.

This is a lot different from saying you want to kill someone or even conspiring to put wee etc. in food. This is coming up with plausible ways of murdering without getting caught at the age of 9. This should be your main concern here! I too would have gone to the police and wouldn't have let the child get off with just an apology.

Your son may have been bullied by this boy, but it sounds like the tables turned.

Your son's behaviour caused the boy and his family considerable distress. I actually think its right he apologises to the boys parents as well as the boy. Its not as if he was in a room on his own with the boy's families.

Children need to learn basic manners and how to treat people. Maybe its nerve wracking, embrassing or humilating to make an apology, but that its nothing compared to the hurt that the OP son caused. No amount of "bullying" justifies making stupid threats to kill someone. I feel he got off very lightly

It right that we shield children from every consequences of their stupidity. When a parent hands theri child over to the school the school is acting in loco parentis. In an ideal world the child's parents would teach their offspring right from wrong, but this doesn't always happen.

andyndionne

I agree with others - the 'poisoning' a disliked DC plan was most likely more wish than reality - but I can see why the parents of the child concerned took this seriously and why the school is as well. It was a threat to kill someone - unlikely to be acted upon - but upsetting to the people concerned.

I don't get why your child alone was selected to apologise to the parents - and I think you do need to get to the bottom of this. Have the other children said your son was the 'ring leader' or have the parents of the 'bully' got fixated about your DC.

Certainly our school handles this by having both children apologise to each other in class - because it always takes two to have an argument. Parents are never involved.

I think it's a little too easy for lljkk to suggest change schools - it isn't just a snap your fingers kind of thing and there can be other issues (siblings/ finances/ travel issues) - but if you feel this is insolvable you can approach the LEA. However, you've got to recognise that it may well be your DC who's labelled the bully and that 'label' goes with him to the new school.

Your DC is Year 4 (I'm guessing given you said he's 9) - and has at least 2 more years in this primary school. I'm not sure if the school is more than one form, but if it is - My question to the school would be can these boys be separated? I'd be pushing for your child to be in a different class from the 'bully'.

Going forward - your DC needs to avoid conflict. I can absolutely see how he can get dragged into things and be the one who's caught and blamed for the whole incident. I also think this situation smacks of someone telling on these boys/ your DC. He needs to recognise if he joins in retaliation he's likely to be blamed/ caught and get into more trouble. Time to keep well out of it and learn to avoid trouble. DH has an expression: Moscow rules - where when dealing with a particularly difficult person you are nothing but polite & professional giving them no ammunition for complaint. It's a good survival skill in the workplace and it sounds like it might help at school.

I understand your anger but I don't think you're in a strong position here. My advice is see if your DC can be placed in a different form from the other child and rest assured that summer will soon be here and he can have a break from this situation.

HTH

All very astute and very good advice PSBD, imho.

My concerns with this post your son and at least 3 other children are complaining this boy is bullying and no one has gone into school.

I suggest you find out the anti bullying policy.

I would also speak to the school about their opinion , they may well see a lot your DS hasn't told you. I can tell you I have spoke to the school about events before and discovered there is a whole chun of info missing my Ds hs declined to share with me.

Also should you be right this boy is a bully you DS need to learn how to deal with him without reatliating..Kidsscape is a great starting point.

I don't understand this. In general as a parent one is not allowed to know anything about another child but here parents of another child are allowed contact with someone else's child and this is facilitated by the HT????

If that happened to my child, regardless of what she would have done, I would ask the HT to put her reasons for doing so in writing and ask the school governors for their views as well. I can not believe anyone would find that acceptable.